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If a young woman was interested in STEM and saw your comment it would be a reason for them not to go into STEM. That is bad. It pushes someone away from what th

by gmm1990 3y ago

If a young woman was interested in STEM and saw your comment it would be a reason for them not to go into STEM. That is bad. It pushes someone away from what they might be interested in.

nec4b 3y ago
Why? I'm saying they can do what they want. You are basically pushing them into something.
- gmm1990 3y ago
  Things that are considered normal in society like women not being interested in it and engineering are self reinforcing. I don't know of any studies that indicate they shouldn't be doing those jobs, just that they are more likely not too. This robs women of higher paying stem jobs and society of more people to do those jobs.
  - nec4b 3y ago
    >> Things that are considered normal in society like women not being interested in it and engineering are self reinforcing. I'm sorry, but I guess can't follow your logic at all. I haven't used the word normal anywhere. To me it seems you find it normal that everyone should be thrilled to become an engineer. Women themself at large find it more normal to choose other professions when they have an option. >> I don't know of any studies that indicate they shouldn't be doing those jobs Me neither. Still if they would exist, they would be about women as group and not about what a single woman can do. >> This robs women of higher paying stem jobs and society of more people to do those jobs. Believe it or not some people (men or women) care more about what they do then how much money they make doing it.
    - gmm1990 3y ago
      I'm just arguing from a perspective that society influences women not to go into STEM, and that's not a positive thing.
      - Manuel_D 3y ago
        The idea that society influences women not to go into STEM is not at all clear. It's essentially just assuming that any disparity must be due to social influence. The reality is that larger male participation in STEM is universal across a wide variety of societies. There isn't a single country in the world where women make up more than 55% of STEM workers, while the vast majority of countries have fewer than 30% of women in STEM [1]. When a trend is present across rich and poor societies, conservative and liberal societies, religious and secular societies, it's pretty hard to say social influence is the cause. 1. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more...
        gmm1990 3y ago
        Interesting that different society’s have such different levels of female participation in stem. I’d view that as evidence that society heavily influences these gender participation rates.
        Manuel_D 3y ago
        This is not at all what is described in the article. They don't have different levels of participation in STEM. Nearly every single country in the world has a majority male STEM participation. Most fall within a relatively tight band between 15 and 35%.
        gmm1990 3y ago
        The articles based on a questionable paper. 15 to 35 isn’t a tight band. The top of the range would have twice as many as the bottom.
        Manuel_D 3y ago
        Do you have a substantive criticisms of the paper? Or will you just proclaim that it's questionable without any elaboration? The possible ranges of representation are from 0% to 100%, but almost all fall within a band of 20%. This is a pretty tight band. Proportionality between the lowest and highest isn't that relevant. A range from 10-20% is still a wider band than 1% to 5%, even though the latter has a bigger proportional difference from the lowest to the highest data point. More importantly, there are zero examples of countries with 85%, 80%, or 75% women in STEM. But there's plenty of examples of countries with men of those levels of representation. If it were culturally or socially determined, we'd should see women's representation in that range among some societies.
Izkata 3y ago
Except that's not what happened. Typically people just compare the relative rates of men and women in STEM, but years ago I saw some graphs that used absolute numbers instead of relative numbers. It tells a very different story than the typical one: Up until the 80s (give or take a decade, I don't remember exactly when the inflection happened), men and women were graduating in STEM fields at around the same rate, and both increasing. After the inflection point, women graduates kept increasing at the exact same rate as before, but men skyrocketed. Women aren't being pushed out, men flocked to these fields.
Manuel_D 3y ago
So a woman is going to see a comment along the lines of "just let people study whatever they're interested in, don't try to socially engineer arbitrary outcomes" and that's going to dissuade them from going into STEM? I don't really see the cause and effect here.

If a young woman was interested in STEM and saw your comment it would be a reason for them not to go into STEM. That is bad. It pushes someone away from what they might be interested in.

nec4b 3y ago

Why? I'm saying they can do what they want. You are basically pushing them into something.

gmm1990 3y ago
Things that are considered normal in society like women not being interested in it and engineering are self reinforcing. I don't know of any studies that indicate they shouldn't be doing those jobs, just that they are more likely not too. This robs women of higher paying stem jobs and society of more people to do those jobs.
- nec4b 3y ago
  >> Things that are considered normal in society like women not being interested in it and engineering are self reinforcing. I'm sorry, but I guess can't follow your logic at all. I haven't used the word normal anywhere. To me it seems you find it normal that everyone should be thrilled to become an engineer. Women themself at large find it more normal to choose other professions when they have an option. >> I don't know of any studies that indicate they shouldn't be doing those jobs Me neither. Still if they would exist, they would be about women as group and not about what a single woman can do. >> This robs women of higher paying stem jobs and society of more people to do those jobs. Believe it or not some people (men or women) care more about what they do then how much money they make doing it.
  - gmm1990 3y ago
    I'm just arguing from a perspective that society influences women not to go into STEM, and that's not a positive thing.
    - Manuel_D 3y ago
      The idea that society influences women not to go into STEM is not at all clear. It's essentially just assuming that any disparity must be due to social influence. The reality is that larger male participation in STEM is universal across a wide variety of societies. There isn't a single country in the world where women make up more than 55% of STEM workers, while the vast majority of countries have fewer than 30% of women in STEM [1]. When a trend is present across rich and poor societies, conservative and liberal societies, religious and secular societies, it's pretty hard to say social influence is the cause. 1. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more...
      - gmm1990 3y ago
        Interesting that different society’s have such different levels of female participation in stem. I’d view that as evidence that society heavily influences these gender participation rates.
        Manuel_D 3y ago
        This is not at all what is described in the article. They don't have different levels of participation in STEM. Nearly every single country in the world has a majority male STEM participation. Most fall within a relatively tight band between 15 and 35%.
        gmm1990 3y ago
        The articles based on a questionable paper. 15 to 35 isn’t a tight band. The top of the range would have twice as many as the bottom.
        Manuel_D 3y ago
        Do you have a substantive criticisms of the paper? Or will you just proclaim that it's questionable without any elaboration? The possible ranges of representation are from 0% to 100%, but almost all fall within a band of 20%. This is a pretty tight band. Proportionality between the lowest and highest isn't that relevant. A range from 10-20% is still a wider band than 1% to 5%, even though the latter has a bigger proportional difference from the lowest to the highest data point. More importantly, there are zero examples of countries with 85%, 80%, or 75% women in STEM. But there's plenty of examples of countries with men of those levels of representation. If it were culturally or socially determined, we'd should see women's representation in that range among some societies.

Izkata 3y ago

Except that's not what happened. Typically people just compare the relative rates of men and women in STEM, but years ago I saw some graphs that used absolute numbers instead of relative numbers. It tells a very different story than the typical one: Up until the 80s (give or take a decade, I don't remember exactly when the inflection happened), men and women were graduating in STEM fields at around the same rate, and both increasing. After the inflection point, women graduates kept increasing at the exact same rate as before, but men skyrocketed. Women aren't being pushed out, men flocked to these fields.

Manuel_D 3y ago

So a woman is going to see a comment along the lines of "just let people study whatever they're interested in, don't try to socially engineer arbitrary outcomes" and that's going to dissuade them from going into STEM? I don't really see the cause and effect here.