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As an American living in Berlin for 2 years while working as a software dev, this article very much confirms my experience. The move started with a bit of stick

As an American living in Berlin for 2 years while working as a software dev, this article very much confirms my experience. The move started with a bit of sticker shock at having my income effectively cut in half - lower salaries and higher taxes - but I feel just as "rich". Germany has very strong worker protection laws, I feel secure in my job, the time off minimum STARTS at 28 days a year, + holidays + effectively unlimited sick days. And recently I went to 80% work capacity at my job (I no longer work Mondays), which again is a protected legal right within Germany. And I'm using this extra time to pursue a masters degree in music composition, something I've always wanted to do but never had time for. Germany has provided me the stability and opportunity to follow this passion, something that would be much harder to do in the U.S. I am very grateful, and I think the U.S. could learn a lot from it's European peers in this regard.

alberth 3y ago
> ”the time off minimum STARTS at 28 days a year” In German culture, do people take 100% of their allowed time off? In US culture, it’s a bit frowned upon within certain fields.
- Rant423 3y ago
  >do people take 100% of their allowed time off? Yes. In some places, they FORCE you to take your allowed time off
black_13 3y ago
[dead]
kmlx 3y ago
> but I feel just as "rich" i think it really depends on the lifestyle you're accustomed to having.
- j7ake 3y ago
  If this lifestyle involves having two kids or more, then Germany wins hands down
  - KoftaBob 3y ago
    But if the lifestyle involves a certain size home, certain cars, vacations, etc then it's much harder to attain with Germany's average income vs the US.
    - Thaxll 3y ago
      Vacations for Europeans has another meaning, they get weeks, sometime even months each year, in the US there is not even a minimum. The average is 11 days in the states, it's really pathetic.
    - PCI-eX16 3y ago
      Can you elaborate on this, because you probably can't get much of this with the average (let alone median, which is usually the measure for this sort of thing) US income at all. "Certain" is terribly vague, and US and Germany are both big countries. Your housing dollar goes a lot further in some places than others. I'll bet anything Germans have access to better vacations than Americans.
      - KoftaBob 3y ago
        For example, if we compare the average homes in the US vs Germany, which it would be reasonable to assume is occupied by those in the average income bracket of those countries: - The square footage in the American homes is almost double that of German homes, and European homes in general: https://mises.org/power-market/americans-have-much-more-living-space-europeans https://mises.org/power-market/americans-have-much-more-livi... > you probably can't get much of this with the average (let alone median, which is usually the measure for this sort of thing) US income at all. - Housing expenditure as percentage of the household income is lower in the US than pretty much everywhere in Europe, meaning American housing is more affordable with respect to American salaries: https://cdn.mises.org/styles/max_full/s3/hsgexpend_0.png https://cdn.mises.org/styles/max_full/s3/hsgexpend_0.png - If we're talking cars, the same car will usually cost more in Germany than it does in the US, despite the US buyer having a higher income: (Transportation section) https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Germany https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu...
0xDEF 3y ago
It is worth pointing out that we Northern Europeans can only afford this because we have a small group of highly competitive and wealth generating companies and sectors. We would be in a dire situation here in Denmark without Novo Nordisk. 1-2 years ago it was Maersk, DSV etc. that held up our economy because freight prices were high.
- tokai 3y ago
  Not true. Denmark has a very diverse economy.
- firewire 3y ago
  Denmark, Sweden, and Finland have economies that are nowhere near as concentrated as the two other Nordic nations. Norway is analogous to a Middle Eastern petrostate with over 60% of their economy being derived from oil. Iceland is also heavily reliant on aluminum mining and fishing with those two sectors making up over 70% of their economy.
nus07 3y ago
Ehh we here in US got better things to do with taxes like spending it to build another fighter jet so we can send it to the Middle East in the name of Freedom . I am told you guys in Western Europe enjoy your stability because of the “freedom” we bring for all of you at the cost of our own healthcare , worker protections and social safety net. Look we are martyrs. *my brother in law lives in Germany making less than half of what I make and I still envy his lifestyle . He and his wife are going on a 20 day trip to Greece and I am on-call over the holidays . But I make more than double and have my “freedom” and supposed choice of where my tax dollars go.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  Sure, but replace jets with “health care middlemen” and you get the real spending.
  - atmavatar 3y ago
    Hey, don't knock our perfect healthcare system where we have 10 administrators for every physician because the hospital needs to negotiate rates with thousands of different insurance providers, and each insurance provider needs a glut of administrators because each hospital wants to negotiate its own rates.
- decafninja 3y ago
  I more or less quadrupled my income a few years ago, and as someone who loves to travel, this has opened a lot of doors in terms of travel. I can travel to more places, for longer, not to mention doing so more comfortably/luxuriously. If before I could comfortably afford one international vacation a year, I can afford several. Obviously I’m not aware of what you or your brother in law make, but I’d imagine you’d easily be able to replicate his Greek vacation if you’re making double what he is. On a more general non-travel note, I feel after you exceed a certain threshold of income in the US, you can just bulldoze your way into matching or exceeding most of the European social benefits including healthcare. Definitely possible if you’re making FAANG or near-FAANG level. On the subject of SWE comp, an Italian SWE colleague half jokingly told me he’d make more as a gondolier in Venice than in a typical Italian SWE job. Curious if that’s really true.
gumby 3y ago
The metrics are complex and ill understood, because few people can make the comparison you have. The thing that jumps out to me about life in the USA is how much time you spend maintaining it rather than living it. Chasing down bills for health care, until recently a lack of autopay, steady stream of paperwork and decisions from the schools…just a million fine-grained decisions and responsibilities when compared to other advanced economies. I used to feel it was because I have more choices in the US, but some sectors here like telecom or travel are much less competitive than OECD norms. No place is perfect, of course. But I am in SV because I love the work environment, not the quality of life in the USA which I consider flat and exhausting compared to the other countries I’ve lived in.
- landedgentry 3y ago
  It's death by a thousand paper cuts. A lot of things simply cannot be depended on to work in the U.S., and you have to spend a lot of time chasing them down. More examples: budgeting flexible spending accounts, choosing health insurance annually, finding doctors in your network (and checking again and again, with multiple sources), hotels losing your reservation, airlines overbooking flights, mail and deliveries disappearing, people promising and not returning calls, etc.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    > finding doctors in your network (and checking again and again, with multiple sources) I have a similar problem in Europe too. Most of the good public state-insurance doctors are overbooked and my option is to keep calling every doctor on a 50km radius continuously, hoping to find a free specialist with an appointment, or pay up privately out of my already small paycheck for a spot at a private doctor. >hotels losing your reservation, airlines overbooking flights, mail and deliveries disappearing, people promising and not returning calls, etc. That doesn't sound like anything US specific but more like a collection of things from the "shit happens" category. Same things can happen in Europe too, and some have happened to me. I think you imagine the grass must be always greener elsewhere. It's not. Every place has its own set of perks and problems.
refurb 3y ago
I guess it depends on what you’re looking for because I had the opposite experience. I went from carefully budgeting each month, thinking about buying a house maybe in a decade (or two). And put away a few hundred for retirement each month. Job opportunities were ok, but options limited. Then I went to the US and got a 100% pay bump. And pay has only increased after that. I bought a house 2 years after arriving in the US. I was putting away 10x in savings. Suddenly retiring before I was 65 was an option. I went from being “ok” to a state where I didn’t have to worry if I had a major expensive. The mental load went away. I could think about retiring early. Not to mention the career opportunities. I had multiple employers and cities I could work in. Sure, healthcare is a hassle, but I didn’t have to be a 1 year waitlist for a primary physician. Overall moving to the US was a huge life upgrade for me.
- 6bb32646d83d 3y ago
  Same experience here. Yes, my friends back home are on vacations 5 weeks a year. But I can do something in the US that almost nobody can do in Europe: put away >$100k every year and run toward financial independence and an early retirement. Back in Europe, my friends don't even think about something like that. They all just accept that they'll be working until 63, 65 or whatever the retirement age will be when they're older. And it's not just tech. My wife is in another sector and also makes a lot more than she would in Europe.
- splintercell 3y ago
  Replace "rich" with "secure" in OP's comment, and it will make a lot more sense.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>As an American living in Berlin for 2 years [...] but I feel just as "rich" You probably lucked out on landing a good job and housing, otherwise it's difficult to feel even remotely rich in Berlin as you search for housing if you're moving in right now. Landing a good job right now is also insanely difficult if you don't have the in-demand skills & experience, a stellar resume, and willing to do lengthy take home tests or leetcode. It's highly competitive right now. Your experience is more like survivorship bias.
roflyear 3y ago
It's funny in a way: because the US spends so much on its military, its allies do not have to. This of course is an enormous benefit to the US: but it's a great way for allies of the US to prosper under the might of the US military while maintaining security in this regard.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >because the US spends so much on its military, its allies do not have to The US also doesn't have to spend so much on military considering it has no enemies at it's borders. It can always ramp down and spend the extra on social services. Ask yourself why doesn't it do that? >but it's a great way for allies of the US to prosper under the might of the US military while maintaining security in this regard Oh please, stop being so generous with your allies, you don't have to. You have this a bit backwards. It's mainly the US who prospers from the oversized military. Do you think the US would stay the world reserve currency and as influential on the world stage in terms of decision making, if the US had the military the size of Denmark? It's precisely that powerful military that allows the US to dictate a lot of international terms and deals in its favor: "Oh, you're a commie nation with different values than us? Then enjoy our globally imposed embargo and sanctions that will impoverish your people." The US could save a lot of money by shrinking its military and global influence to just cover the US/NA instead of the whole world, but then that would leave a worldwide power vacuum that China will gladly fill and that would also make the US less influential and therefore poorer. So you see, the US spends 'hella stacks' to be the world reigning superpower because it profits more than it spends.
  - splintercell 3y ago
    I can't believe you're saying these things in a post Russia-Ukraine war scenario. Yes, US has a huge military and it benefits from it, but I would say the primary beneficiary of this military are the friends of US who now don't have to spend money on military. Rather they spend money on their social programs. Can US walk out of this role it plays, and still remain in a beneficial position? This is the biggest raging debate in the US right now. You can check the works of Peter Zeihan (who claims that US dollar will become even more desirable after the US walkout), or Brent Johnson (who claims that, even in a complete decline scenario, US dollar will still maintain its dominance above and beyond everyone). Either way, Americans are hugely divided on maintaining this world order as it exists, and saying "you guys would lose so much without this", it's just taking a side on that debate.
splintercell 3y ago
> The move started with a bit of sticker shock at having my income effectively cut in half - lower salaries and higher taxes - but I feel just as "rich". The thing you're feeling is not same amount of "rich", but same amount of security. If your mental model shifted, You would find out the difference between these two things. For instance, if your aim was to make as much money as possible as soon as possible, then move to a place with much lower cost of living and work far less (or not at all), then you would not find this to be the same amount of "rich".
CalRobert 3y ago
It's remarkable how there are some things I just couldn't find in the US at (nearly) any price. I wanted to live somewhere I felt safe with my kids biking to school and living car-free as a family. And there are some places that kinda-sorta-barely might be doable for that (Portland, culdesac in Tempe but I've zero interest in Arizona, maybe Davis, parts of New York though it's not ideal for kids biking safely, one of those cities with golf-cart paths), but no matter what my budget I couldn't really find anywhere that gives me what I get for the price of a basic house in pretty much any city in the Netherlands. I know I'd have more money in the US, but having lived there for 30 years, I'm confident my quality of life would be worse.

alberth 3y ago

> ”the time off minimum STARTS at 28 days a year” In German culture, do people take 100% of their allowed time off? In US culture, it’s a bit frowned upon within certain fields.

Rant423 3y ago
>do people take 100% of their allowed time off? Yes. In some places, they FORCE you to take your allowed time off

black_13 3y ago

[dead]

kmlx 3y ago

> but I feel just as "rich" i think it really depends on the lifestyle you're accustomed to having.

j7ake 3y ago
If this lifestyle involves having two kids or more, then Germany wins hands down
- KoftaBob 3y ago
  But if the lifestyle involves a certain size home, certain cars, vacations, etc then it's much harder to attain with Germany's average income vs the US.
  - Thaxll 3y ago
    Vacations for Europeans has another meaning, they get weeks, sometime even months each year, in the US there is not even a minimum. The average is 11 days in the states, it's really pathetic.
  - PCI-eX16 3y ago
    Can you elaborate on this, because you probably can't get much of this with the average (let alone median, which is usually the measure for this sort of thing) US income at all. "Certain" is terribly vague, and US and Germany are both big countries. Your housing dollar goes a lot further in some places than others. I'll bet anything Germans have access to better vacations than Americans.
    - KoftaBob 3y ago
      For example, if we compare the average homes in the US vs Germany, which it would be reasonable to assume is occupied by those in the average income bracket of those countries: - The square footage in the American homes is almost double that of German homes, and European homes in general: https://mises.org/power-market/americans-have-much-more-living-space-europeans https://mises.org/power-market/americans-have-much-more-livi... > you probably can't get much of this with the average (let alone median, which is usually the measure for this sort of thing) US income at all. - Housing expenditure as percentage of the household income is lower in the US than pretty much everywhere in Europe, meaning American housing is more affordable with respect to American salaries: https://cdn.mises.org/styles/max_full/s3/hsgexpend_0.png https://cdn.mises.org/styles/max_full/s3/hsgexpend_0.png - If we're talking cars, the same car will usually cost more in Germany than it does in the US, despite the US buyer having a higher income: (Transportation section) https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Germany https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu...

0xDEF 3y ago

It is worth pointing out that we Northern Europeans can only afford this because we have a small group of highly competitive and wealth generating companies and sectors. We would be in a dire situation here in Denmark without Novo Nordisk. 1-2 years ago it was Maersk, DSV etc. that held up our economy because freight prices were high.

tokai 3y ago
Not true. Denmark has a very diverse economy.
firewire 3y ago
Denmark, Sweden, and Finland have economies that are nowhere near as concentrated as the two other Nordic nations. Norway is analogous to a Middle Eastern petrostate with over 60% of their economy being derived from oil. Iceland is also heavily reliant on aluminum mining and fishing with those two sectors making up over 70% of their economy.

nus07 3y ago

Ehh we here in US got better things to do with taxes like spending it to build another fighter jet so we can send it to the Middle East in the name of Freedom . I am told you guys in Western Europe enjoy your stability because of the “freedom” we bring for all of you at the cost of our own healthcare , worker protections and social safety net. Look we are martyrs. *my brother in law lives in Germany making less than half of what I make and I still envy his lifestyle . He and his wife are going on a 20 day trip to Greece and I am on-call over the holidays . But I make more than double and have my “freedom” and supposed choice of where my tax dollars go.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
actionfromafar 3y ago
Sure, but replace jets with “health care middlemen” and you get the real spending.
- atmavatar 3y ago
  Hey, don't knock our perfect healthcare system where we have 10 administrators for every physician because the hospital needs to negotiate rates with thousands of different insurance providers, and each insurance provider needs a glut of administrators because each hospital wants to negotiate its own rates.
decafninja 3y ago
I more or less quadrupled my income a few years ago, and as someone who loves to travel, this has opened a lot of doors in terms of travel. I can travel to more places, for longer, not to mention doing so more comfortably/luxuriously. If before I could comfortably afford one international vacation a year, I can afford several. Obviously I’m not aware of what you or your brother in law make, but I’d imagine you’d easily be able to replicate his Greek vacation if you’re making double what he is. On a more general non-travel note, I feel after you exceed a certain threshold of income in the US, you can just bulldoze your way into matching or exceeding most of the European social benefits including healthcare. Definitely possible if you’re making FAANG or near-FAANG level. On the subject of SWE comp, an Italian SWE colleague half jokingly told me he’d make more as a gondolier in Venice than in a typical Italian SWE job. Curious if that’s really true.

gumby 3y ago

The metrics are complex and ill understood, because few people can make the comparison you have. The thing that jumps out to me about life in the USA is how much time you spend maintaining it rather than living it. Chasing down bills for health care, until recently a lack of autopay, steady stream of paperwork and decisions from the schools…just a million fine-grained decisions and responsibilities when compared to other advanced economies. I used to feel it was because I have more choices in the US, but some sectors here like telecom or travel are much less competitive than OECD norms. No place is perfect, of course. But I am in SV because I love the work environment, not the quality of life in the USA which I consider flat and exhausting compared to the other countries I’ve lived in.

landedgentry 3y ago
It's death by a thousand paper cuts. A lot of things simply cannot be depended on to work in the U.S., and you have to spend a lot of time chasing them down. More examples: budgeting flexible spending accounts, choosing health insurance annually, finding doctors in your network (and checking again and again, with multiple sources), hotels losing your reservation, airlines overbooking flights, mail and deliveries disappearing, people promising and not returning calls, etc.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  > finding doctors in your network (and checking again and again, with multiple sources) I have a similar problem in Europe too. Most of the good public state-insurance doctors are overbooked and my option is to keep calling every doctor on a 50km radius continuously, hoping to find a free specialist with an appointment, or pay up privately out of my already small paycheck for a spot at a private doctor. >hotels losing your reservation, airlines overbooking flights, mail and deliveries disappearing, people promising and not returning calls, etc. That doesn't sound like anything US specific but more like a collection of things from the "shit happens" category. Same things can happen in Europe too, and some have happened to me. I think you imagine the grass must be always greener elsewhere. It's not. Every place has its own set of perks and problems.

refurb 3y ago

I guess it depends on what you’re looking for because I had the opposite experience. I went from carefully budgeting each month, thinking about buying a house maybe in a decade (or two). And put away a few hundred for retirement each month. Job opportunities were ok, but options limited. Then I went to the US and got a 100% pay bump. And pay has only increased after that. I bought a house 2 years after arriving in the US. I was putting away 10x in savings. Suddenly retiring before I was 65 was an option. I went from being “ok” to a state where I didn’t have to worry if I had a major expensive. The mental load went away. I could think about retiring early. Not to mention the career opportunities. I had multiple employers and cities I could work in. Sure, healthcare is a hassle, but I didn’t have to be a 1 year waitlist for a primary physician. Overall moving to the US was a huge life upgrade for me.

6bb32646d83d 3y ago
Same experience here. Yes, my friends back home are on vacations 5 weeks a year. But I can do something in the US that almost nobody can do in Europe: put away >$100k every year and run toward financial independence and an early retirement. Back in Europe, my friends don't even think about something like that. They all just accept that they'll be working until 63, 65 or whatever the retirement age will be when they're older. And it's not just tech. My wife is in another sector and also makes a lot more than she would in Europe.
splintercell 3y ago
Replace "rich" with "secure" in OP's comment, and it will make a lot more sense.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>As an American living in Berlin for 2 years [...] but I feel just as "rich" You probably lucked out on landing a good job and housing, otherwise it's difficult to feel even remotely rich in Berlin as you search for housing if you're moving in right now. Landing a good job right now is also insanely difficult if you don't have the in-demand skills & experience, a stellar resume, and willing to do lengthy take home tests or leetcode. It's highly competitive right now. Your experience is more like survivorship bias.

roflyear 3y ago

It's funny in a way: because the US spends so much on its military, its allies do not have to. This of course is an enormous benefit to the US: but it's a great way for allies of the US to prosper under the might of the US military while maintaining security in this regard.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>because the US spends so much on its military, its allies do not have to The US also doesn't have to spend so much on military considering it has no enemies at it's borders. It can always ramp down and spend the extra on social services. Ask yourself why doesn't it do that? >but it's a great way for allies of the US to prosper under the might of the US military while maintaining security in this regard Oh please, stop being so generous with your allies, you don't have to. You have this a bit backwards. It's mainly the US who prospers from the oversized military. Do you think the US would stay the world reserve currency and as influential on the world stage in terms of decision making, if the US had the military the size of Denmark? It's precisely that powerful military that allows the US to dictate a lot of international terms and deals in its favor: "Oh, you're a commie nation with different values than us? Then enjoy our globally imposed embargo and sanctions that will impoverish your people." The US could save a lot of money by shrinking its military and global influence to just cover the US/NA instead of the whole world, but then that would leave a worldwide power vacuum that China will gladly fill and that would also make the US less influential and therefore poorer. So you see, the US spends 'hella stacks' to be the world reigning superpower because it profits more than it spends.
- splintercell 3y ago
  I can't believe you're saying these things in a post Russia-Ukraine war scenario. Yes, US has a huge military and it benefits from it, but I would say the primary beneficiary of this military are the friends of US who now don't have to spend money on military. Rather they spend money on their social programs. Can US walk out of this role it plays, and still remain in a beneficial position? This is the biggest raging debate in the US right now. You can check the works of Peter Zeihan (who claims that US dollar will become even more desirable after the US walkout), or Brent Johnson (who claims that, even in a complete decline scenario, US dollar will still maintain its dominance above and beyond everyone). Either way, Americans are hugely divided on maintaining this world order as it exists, and saying "you guys would lose so much without this", it's just taking a side on that debate.

splintercell 3y ago

> The move started with a bit of sticker shock at having my income effectively cut in half - lower salaries and higher taxes - but I feel just as "rich". The thing you're feeling is not same amount of "rich", but same amount of security. If your mental model shifted, You would find out the difference between these two things. For instance, if your aim was to make as much money as possible as soon as possible, then move to a place with much lower cost of living and work far less (or not at all), then you would not find this to be the same amount of "rich".

CalRobert 3y ago

It's remarkable how there are some things I just couldn't find in the US at (nearly) any price. I wanted to live somewhere I felt safe with my kids biking to school and living car-free as a family. And there are some places that kinda-sorta-barely might be doable for that (Portland, culdesac in Tempe but I've zero interest in Arizona, maybe Davis, parts of New York though it's not ideal for kids biking safely, one of those cities with golf-cart paths), but no matter what my budget I couldn't really find anywhere that gives me what I get for the price of a basic house in pretty much any city in the Netherlands. I know I'd have more money in the US, but having lived there for 30 years, I'm confident my quality of life would be worse.