5 ms·

Seems like this would only bar working-class and lower-class applicants with high ambitions and impeccable high school records from the ability to attend top un

Seems like this would only bar working-class and lower-class applicants with high ambitions and impeccable high school records from the ability to attend top universities. True, they could attend Honors programs from state schools instead. But it still doesn't feel right.

fredgrott 3y ago
typically the land grant universities that are state public out perform ivy league schools in specific subject areas. You miss the point of these ivy league schools already are taxed, Congress wants to say well why not donate to the cause...and frankly some ivy league schools do in fact do that in donations to financial grant programs for low income... Other point is that pell grants are better spent at State Schools where students can almost get 50% or more of tuition covered by pell grants due to the Congress finally increasing the amounts due to inflation in the bill they are proposing.
- Loughla 3y ago
  I agree with mostly everything you're saying except this: >some ivy league schools do in fact do that in donations to financial grant programs for low income This is always after other financial aid has been applied to the student account. They're not going to be willing to pony up the missing chunk, I bet you.
Der_Einzige 3y ago
Honors colleges are a massive scam. They give the student more work and far more costs for only a small fraction of the prestige associated with top universities. They also usually prevent one from applying AP credits or IB credits to college courses, as their "honors" versions of classes are not considered equivalent to any AP class. More money for mom and dad to pay because their kid got waitlisted and later rejected from Berkeley.
- westurner 3y ago
  "Is college worth it? A return-on-investment analysis" (2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29007377 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29007377 : >>> Why would people make an investment with insufficient ROI (Return on Investment)? >> Insufficient information. >> College Scorecard [1] is a database with a web interface for finding and comparing schools according to a number of objective criteria. CollegeScorecard launched in 2015. It lists "Average Annual Cost", "Graduation Rate", and "Salary After Attending" on the search results pages. When you review a detail page for an institution, there are many additional statistics; things like: "Typical Total Debt After Graduation" and "Typical Monthly Loan Payment" Which curricular assignments have actual career ROI for cash-strapped students?
- ejstronge 3y ago
  > They also usually prevent one from applying AP credits or IB credits to college courses Maybe this was your experience, but I have not ever heard of this, so ‘usually’ may not be the correct descriptor.
  - Der_Einzige 3y ago
    I challenge you to find an example where honors college courses are considered "equivalent" to the honors college core you're required to take. My claim is specifically courses like AP Lit or AP Lang can't be applied for "Honors Western Civ", not that they prevent AP Physics or other stuff not in the honors college from being applied.
- jakderrida 3y ago
  > Honors colleges are a massive scam. They give the student more work and far more costs for only a small fraction of the prestige associated with top universities. My niece is actually getting paid monthly in her honors program. Everything else is also covered. This, despite being eligible for GI Bill through her dad. As for Berkeley, I didn't imagine they have an honors college. In my mind, it's most associated with state schools and I've definitely seen students go from Honors program at state school to Ivy Leagues for grad school. Perhaps some of them are a scam. Just not the ones that I've seen.
hasty_pudding 3y ago
This would never happen. The universities need smart people to keep the reputation up for all the average but rich people.
- epolanski 3y ago
  They only need those people in fundraising/public and research role to boost the college rankings. Education received has never been different at ivy leagues.
  - jakderrida 3y ago
    I disagree. When watching some interviews of Yale students before, there was a frequent pattern of students responding, "I'm just a legacy student." to indicate that they're from a family of graduates paying full tuition, distinct from the merited students that are on some sort of scholarships and aid. You have to consider that, as much as we'd all love think being smart is reliably inherited, it's not reliable at all. Not saying I'm opposed to their system. So-called "legacy students" are how the school is primarily financed, allowing subsidies for merited students. Without legacy, it goes bankrupt. Without merited, the degree loses value.
selimthegrim 3y ago
There’s nothing stopping them from taking Pell grants, and most of these universities are need blind at that income level anyway

fredgrott 3y ago

typically the land grant universities that are state public out perform ivy league schools in specific subject areas. You miss the point of these ivy league schools already are taxed, Congress wants to say well why not donate to the cause...and frankly some ivy league schools do in fact do that in donations to financial grant programs for low income... Other point is that pell grants are better spent at State Schools where students can almost get 50% or more of tuition covered by pell grants due to the Congress finally increasing the amounts due to inflation in the bill they are proposing.

Loughla 3y ago
I agree with mostly everything you're saying except this: >some ivy league schools do in fact do that in donations to financial grant programs for low income This is always after other financial aid has been applied to the student account. They're not going to be willing to pony up the missing chunk, I bet you.

Der_Einzige 3y ago

Honors colleges are a massive scam. They give the student more work and far more costs for only a small fraction of the prestige associated with top universities. They also usually prevent one from applying AP credits or IB credits to college courses, as their "honors" versions of classes are not considered equivalent to any AP class. More money for mom and dad to pay because their kid got waitlisted and later rejected from Berkeley.

westurner 3y ago
"Is college worth it? A return-on-investment analysis" (2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29007377 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29007377 : >>> Why would people make an investment with insufficient ROI (Return on Investment)? >> Insufficient information. >> College Scorecard [1] is a database with a web interface for finding and comparing schools according to a number of objective criteria. CollegeScorecard launched in 2015. It lists "Average Annual Cost", "Graduation Rate", and "Salary After Attending" on the search results pages. When you review a detail page for an institution, there are many additional statistics; things like: "Typical Total Debt After Graduation" and "Typical Monthly Loan Payment" Which curricular assignments have actual career ROI for cash-strapped students?
ejstronge 3y ago
> They also usually prevent one from applying AP credits or IB credits to college courses Maybe this was your experience, but I have not ever heard of this, so ‘usually’ may not be the correct descriptor.
- Der_Einzige 3y ago
  I challenge you to find an example where honors college courses are considered "equivalent" to the honors college core you're required to take. My claim is specifically courses like AP Lit or AP Lang can't be applied for "Honors Western Civ", not that they prevent AP Physics or other stuff not in the honors college from being applied.
jakderrida 3y ago
> Honors colleges are a massive scam. They give the student more work and far more costs for only a small fraction of the prestige associated with top universities. My niece is actually getting paid monthly in her honors program. Everything else is also covered. This, despite being eligible for GI Bill through her dad. As for Berkeley, I didn't imagine they have an honors college. In my mind, it's most associated with state schools and I've definitely seen students go from Honors program at state school to Ivy Leagues for grad school. Perhaps some of them are a scam. Just not the ones that I've seen.

hasty_pudding 3y ago

This would never happen. The universities need smart people to keep the reputation up for all the average but rich people.

epolanski 3y ago
They only need those people in fundraising/public and research role to boost the college rankings. Education received has never been different at ivy leagues.
- jakderrida 3y ago
  I disagree. When watching some interviews of Yale students before, there was a frequent pattern of students responding, "I'm just a legacy student." to indicate that they're from a family of graduates paying full tuition, distinct from the merited students that are on some sort of scholarships and aid. You have to consider that, as much as we'd all love think being smart is reliably inherited, it's not reliable at all. Not saying I'm opposed to their system. So-called "legacy students" are how the school is primarily financed, allowing subsidies for merited students. Without legacy, it goes bankrupt. Without merited, the degree loses value.

selimthegrim 3y ago

There’s nothing stopping them from taking Pell grants, and most of these universities are need blind at that income level anyway