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I've never seen it mentioned but the idea of having something implanted into me is completely horrifying. Am I alone in that and everyone else is looking forwar

I've never seen it mentioned but the idea of having something implanted into me is completely horrifying. Am I alone in that and everyone else is looking forward to getting some kind of chip implanted in their brain? It triggers the same kind of horror that imagining having a limb amputated has associated with it. Do people who get pacemakers or cochlear implants or organ transplants need counselling or is it just not a problem for most people?

KineticLensman 3y ago
I have an Implantable cardioverter-defibrillator (ICD). It was installed just over two years ago, after I had an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest due to ventricular fibrillation (this has a 1 in 5 survival rate, so I dodged a bullet there). I was lucky that I passed out in the lobby of a building that had a defibrillator; if I'd not been near one I'd be dead (or likely brain damaged). It was implanted three days after the VF episode, and the doctor basically said "we don't know why the VF happened in your case, the ICD is your best option for staying alive in the future". The implantation procedure only involved a heavy local anaesthetic and wasn't unpleasant. Much, much less painful than the broken ribs from being CPR'd, which took a couple of months to heal. The ICD sits under the skin above below my left collar bone, and the shape is clearly visible. I ignore it on a day to day basis. Every year I go in for a device check and sometimes for a joke they make it buzz (like having a mobile phone on vibrate, under your skin). Hehe. It's fired once, almost a year ago. I was on my own at the time, at home, and if it hadn't gone off, I'd be dead, again. So having it is a no-brainer, and I have never felt traumatised / horrified by it. What was / is harder to deal with is that every time it fires, I now face a two-year driving ban. I totally understand the reasoning here: when a VF episode happens I have perhaps 5 to 10 seconds of useful consciousness, some of which is spent feeling disoriented, and I know I'd be a danger if driving. But the lifestyle changes caused by loss of driving are more mentally challenging than the fact of the ICD itself.
- e40 3y ago
  Are you saying that even with the device, when it fires, you still feel disoriented?
  - KineticLensman 3y ago
    The VF causes disorientation as the brain is starved of oxygen. The device is set to fire after about 15 seconds, by which time I'm already unconscious, because it is pretty fucking painful.
    - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
      I'm sorry you're having to deal with that. Mine isn't quite the same but I have had bilateral tonic-clonic seizures (Previously called "Grand Mal") and time traveling like that isn't ever fun.
    - e40 3y ago
      Damn. Sorry to hear that! I am glad, though, you are still with us.
- Chris2048 3y ago
  Strange question: I know stories of people who dropped dead from their first heart attack. Would it be viable to install a ICD even without a history of heart problems? Like having you tonsils/appendix removed early. That would feel inline with the "cyborg" topic - proactive implants rather than reactive.
  - jareklupinski 3y ago
    > Would it be viable to install a ICD even without a history of heart problems i think the reasonable alternative to this led to all the red Automated External Defibrillator stations around which is quite a social cyborg thing to do
  - KineticLensman 3y ago
    Probably no. Lots of different sorts of 'heart attack'. My form of VF is basically due to an electrical fault, not due to blocked arteries / clagged up valves, etc. Implantation has some risks (infection, etc) and the device needs to be swapped out every few years when the battery dies. The device can only help if you have a 'shockable' rhythm. It doesn't restart a stopped heart, it causes the out-of-control muscle fibres in a fibrillating (quivering) heart to resynchronise so that you get proper pumping in the heart's chambers. Cost is obviously a factor as well.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Do people who get pacemakers or cochlear implants or organ transplants need counselling or is it just not a problem for most people? I don't think it's a problem for most people. Most people are more grateful to have a life saving device/organ implanted in them that allows them to live a relatively normal life that would have been impossible otherwise, than no implants but be dead/dying or living in agony.
willsoon 3y ago
I have no problem with a ram paging me, but yes, I would have a problem with a long-term memory thing. And as for organ transplants, I have no problem with them, as long as they are made from material that has not been taken from another human being. Yes, I know, when the time comes, I would like to live to at least finish the project I have on my desk. But.
kiba 3y ago
Do people who get pacemakers or cochlear implants or organ transplants need counselling or is it just not a problem for most people? I personally never found them to be weird or scary. I think they're really cool, though the closest I get to a prosthesis was hearing aid, which is a wearable, not something implanted into me. The real 'horror' is not having a leg and being unable to move. I experienced debilitating pain in one of my legs before, and the inability to walk really suck. Imagine how much more it would suck if you permanently lost a leg.
hvs 3y ago
As someone with a cochlear implant (single-sided deafness), I can't speak for everyone but I would say the opposite of "horror" is how I feel since it returns the ability for me to hear out of that ear. Most that I have talked to are usually happy to get the implant (it is especially life-changing to those with bilateral deafness), the only exceptions are people that are less happy with the results than the actual implant. It sounds like you probably have a phobia around implants.
- ZacnyLos 3y ago
  I have a cochlear implant as well and can confirm it
GuB-42 3y ago
I have never heard of it first hand, though like all phobias, I am sure it somewhat common. As an example, a friend had surgery for a badly broken bone, he ended up with a metal rod in his body. He was given the option to have it removed, but most people, including himself don't take it. The risks of complications are higher than if left in place. My grandparents considered cochlear implants but didn't take them, not because of the fear of implants, but because they were rather experimental at the time and expensive. So they went to regular hearing aids until tech improved. As for pacemakers, people who I know have them are much more worried of the underlying heart condition than of the device.
jncfhnb 3y ago
Because of the ick factor of implantation? Or the concept of surrendering bodily agency?
- mathieuh 3y ago
  It’s the idea of implanting a foreign object in my body. I’m imagining seeing it in a mirror or something and it completely freaking me out. I remember when I was young a friend broke their leg badly and needed one of those devices with the scaffold that has pins going into their legs, I couldn’t even look at it it freaked me out too much. Maybe that experience gave me a phobia
  - zabzonk 3y ago
    how could you see it in a mirror? and i had bad ankle break a year or so ago, and needed lots of external meccano to stabilise it. it wasn't fun, and very inconvenient, but not too painful or scary.
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
I have a few (passive) implants. I had cataracts, and I have lenses implanted in my eyes. What was horrifying was watching myself slowly go blind over several months before I got the implants. I got a foretaste of what my life would be without them, and, yeah, I'll take the implants. I also have two stents in my heart. I was going to have a heart attack within five years. Again, I'll take the implants, and be glad for the chance. I can still run. I can still climb stairs, and I can do it without fear. None of these are intended to augment me (though I see better at distance than I have since kindergarten). They're intended to let me live normally rather than degraded. And in both cases, no, the implants didn't freak me out at all. I basically never think about them, but when I do, it's with gratitude, not revulsion.
hotpotamus 3y ago
I probably need a hip replacement sooner rather than later (at an age that, though not really young, is very young for that procedure) and it's a bit of a factor. Replacing a part of your skeleton with titanium, ceramic, and plastic seems both drastic and technologically somewhat amazing, but the thought of replacing my natural parts with something that can wear, fail, and need further possible maintenance is hard to accept. Eventually the pain might force the issue however; my OEM part isn't really that great either I suppose. It probably also helps that it's a relatively simple, mechanical part. If I was editing my brain, that would bring up all sorts of philosophical problems that would probably paralyze me with indecision.
araes 3y ago
Not alone. Enough descriptions similar to: 'Neuralink’s macaque subjects were euthanized after suffering various complications, including “bloody diarrhea, partial paralysis, and cerebral edema.”' [1] Apparently Neuralink then grew frustrated with UCDavis' cleanliness issues, and took the implants in a box somewhere. [2] Same issue with implants. Do I really need a cochlear implant? Do I really need you to drill in my skull? I don't trust your surgery intentions enough. I think I'd rather learn to read lips and sign language. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/20/23882888/elon-musk-brain-implant-startup-neuralink-monkeys-euthanized https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/20/23882888/elon-musk-brain-... [2] https://www.reuters.com/technology/elon-musks-neuralink-may-have-illegally-transported-pathogens-animal-advocates-2023-02-09/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/elon-musks-neuralink-may-...
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
In the case of cochlear implants, there is a large group of people who react to the idea the same way that you do. And until I read your comment, I don't think I understood them as well as I do now, 1 minute later. Thanks for that, even if it was accidental.

KineticLensman 3y ago

I have an Implantable cardioverter-defibrillator (ICD). It was installed just over two years ago, after I had an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest due to ventricular fibrillation (this has a 1 in 5 survival rate, so I dodged a bullet there). I was lucky that I passed out in the lobby of a building that had a defibrillator; if I'd not been near one I'd be dead (or likely brain damaged). It was implanted three days after the VF episode, and the doctor basically said "we don't know why the VF happened in your case, the ICD is your best option for staying alive in the future". The implantation procedure only involved a heavy local anaesthetic and wasn't unpleasant. Much, much less painful than the broken ribs from being CPR'd, which took a couple of months to heal. The ICD sits under the skin above below my left collar bone, and the shape is clearly visible. I ignore it on a day to day basis. Every year I go in for a device check and sometimes for a joke they make it buzz (like having a mobile phone on vibrate, under your skin). Hehe. It's fired once, almost a year ago. I was on my own at the time, at home, and if it hadn't gone off, I'd be dead, again. So having it is a no-brainer, and I have never felt traumatised / horrified by it. What was / is harder to deal with is that every time it fires, I now face a two-year driving ban. I totally understand the reasoning here: when a VF episode happens I have perhaps 5 to 10 seconds of useful consciousness, some of which is spent feeling disoriented, and I know I'd be a danger if driving. But the lifestyle changes caused by loss of driving are more mentally challenging than the fact of the ICD itself.

e40 3y ago
Are you saying that even with the device, when it fires, you still feel disoriented?
- KineticLensman 3y ago
  The VF causes disorientation as the brain is starved of oxygen. The device is set to fire after about 15 seconds, by which time I'm already unconscious, because it is pretty fucking painful.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    I'm sorry you're having to deal with that. Mine isn't quite the same but I have had bilateral tonic-clonic seizures (Previously called "Grand Mal") and time traveling like that isn't ever fun.
  - e40 3y ago
    Damn. Sorry to hear that! I am glad, though, you are still with us.
Chris2048 3y ago
Strange question: I know stories of people who dropped dead from their first heart attack. Would it be viable to install a ICD even without a history of heart problems? Like having you tonsils/appendix removed early. That would feel inline with the "cyborg" topic - proactive implants rather than reactive.
- jareklupinski 3y ago
  > Would it be viable to install a ICD even without a history of heart problems i think the reasonable alternative to this led to all the red Automated External Defibrillator stations around which is quite a social cyborg thing to do
- KineticLensman 3y ago
  Probably no. Lots of different sorts of 'heart attack'. My form of VF is basically due to an electrical fault, not due to blocked arteries / clagged up valves, etc. Implantation has some risks (infection, etc) and the device needs to be swapped out every few years when the battery dies. The device can only help if you have a 'shockable' rhythm. It doesn't restart a stopped heart, it causes the out-of-control muscle fibres in a fibrillating (quivering) heart to resynchronise so that you get proper pumping in the heart's chambers. Cost is obviously a factor as well.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>Do people who get pacemakers or cochlear implants or organ transplants need counselling or is it just not a problem for most people? I don't think it's a problem for most people. Most people are more grateful to have a life saving device/organ implanted in them that allows them to live a relatively normal life that would have been impossible otherwise, than no implants but be dead/dying or living in agony.

willsoon 3y ago

I have no problem with a ram paging me, but yes, I would have a problem with a long-term memory thing. And as for organ transplants, I have no problem with them, as long as they are made from material that has not been taken from another human being. Yes, I know, when the time comes, I would like to live to at least finish the project I have on my desk. But.

kiba 3y ago

Do people who get pacemakers or cochlear implants or organ transplants need counselling or is it just not a problem for most people? I personally never found them to be weird or scary. I think they're really cool, though the closest I get to a prosthesis was hearing aid, which is a wearable, not something implanted into me. The real 'horror' is not having a leg and being unable to move. I experienced debilitating pain in one of my legs before, and the inability to walk really suck. Imagine how much more it would suck if you permanently lost a leg.

hvs 3y ago

As someone with a cochlear implant (single-sided deafness), I can't speak for everyone but I would say the opposite of "horror" is how I feel since it returns the ability for me to hear out of that ear. Most that I have talked to are usually happy to get the implant (it is especially life-changing to those with bilateral deafness), the only exceptions are people that are less happy with the results than the actual implant. It sounds like you probably have a phobia around implants.

ZacnyLos 3y ago
I have a cochlear implant as well and can confirm it

GuB-42 3y ago

I have never heard of it first hand, though like all phobias, I am sure it somewhat common. As an example, a friend had surgery for a badly broken bone, he ended up with a metal rod in his body. He was given the option to have it removed, but most people, including himself don't take it. The risks of complications are higher than if left in place. My grandparents considered cochlear implants but didn't take them, not because of the fear of implants, but because they were rather experimental at the time and expensive. So they went to regular hearing aids until tech improved. As for pacemakers, people who I know have them are much more worried of the underlying heart condition than of the device.

jncfhnb 3y ago

Because of the ick factor of implantation? Or the concept of surrendering bodily agency?

mathieuh 3y ago
It’s the idea of implanting a foreign object in my body. I’m imagining seeing it in a mirror or something and it completely freaking me out. I remember when I was young a friend broke their leg badly and needed one of those devices with the scaffold that has pins going into their legs, I couldn’t even look at it it freaked me out too much. Maybe that experience gave me a phobia
- zabzonk 3y ago
  how could you see it in a mirror? and i had bad ankle break a year or so ago, and needed lots of external meccano to stabilise it. it wasn't fun, and very inconvenient, but not too painful or scary.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago

I have a few (passive) implants. I had cataracts, and I have lenses implanted in my eyes. What was horrifying was watching myself slowly go blind over several months before I got the implants. I got a foretaste of what my life would be without them, and, yeah, I'll take the implants. I also have two stents in my heart. I was going to have a heart attack within five years. Again, I'll take the implants, and be glad for the chance. I can still run. I can still climb stairs, and I can do it without fear. None of these are intended to augment me (though I see better at distance than I have since kindergarten). They're intended to let me live normally rather than degraded. And in both cases, no, the implants didn't freak me out at all. I basically never think about them, but when I do, it's with gratitude, not revulsion.

hotpotamus 3y ago

I probably need a hip replacement sooner rather than later (at an age that, though not really young, is very young for that procedure) and it's a bit of a factor. Replacing a part of your skeleton with titanium, ceramic, and plastic seems both drastic and technologically somewhat amazing, but the thought of replacing my natural parts with something that can wear, fail, and need further possible maintenance is hard to accept. Eventually the pain might force the issue however; my OEM part isn't really that great either I suppose. It probably also helps that it's a relatively simple, mechanical part. If I was editing my brain, that would bring up all sorts of philosophical problems that would probably paralyze me with indecision.

araes 3y ago

Not alone. Enough descriptions similar to: 'Neuralink’s macaque subjects were euthanized after suffering various complications, including “bloody diarrhea, partial paralysis, and cerebral edema.”' [1] Apparently Neuralink then grew frustrated with UCDavis' cleanliness issues, and took the implants in a box somewhere. [2] Same issue with implants. Do I really need a cochlear implant? Do I really need you to drill in my skull? I don't trust your surgery intentions enough. I think I'd rather learn to read lips and sign language. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/20/23882888/elon-musk-brain-implant-startup-neuralink-monkeys-euthanized https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/20/23882888/elon-musk-brain-... [2] https://www.reuters.com/technology/elon-musks-neuralink-may-have-illegally-transported-pathogens-animal-advocates-2023-02-09/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/elon-musks-neuralink-may-...

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago

In the case of cochlear implants, there is a large group of people who react to the idea the same way that you do. And until I read your comment, I don't think I understood them as well as I do now, 1 minute later. Thanks for that, even if it was accidental.