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I like the Julia language. I've used Julia for some of my published academic papers. It represents an important step towards solving the two-language problem. B

by ubj 3y ago

I like the Julia language. I've used Julia for some of my published academic papers. It represents an important step towards solving the two-language problem. But it does not solve the two-language problem. Until Julia provides first-class support for AoT compilation of (small) binaries and libraries, I don't see it being a competitive single-language option for large-scale projects. And yes I'm aware of PackageCompiler.jl and StaticCompiler.jl (and even GPUCompiler.jl!) They do not provide first-class support for AoT compilation. There's a massive difference between the user experience of compiling a binary with those packages [1] as compared with, e.g., compiling a Mojo binary [2]. I would love to see Julia improve and become more widespread, but I see a strong possibility of it being disrupted by another language unless it improves on this front. [1] https://julialang.github.io/PackageCompiler.jl/dev/apps.html https://julialang.github.io/PackageCompiler.jl/dev/apps.html [2] https://docs.modular.com/mojo/manual/get-started/hello-world.html#build-an-executable-binary https://docs.modular.com/mojo/manual/get-started/hello-world...

banku_brougham 3y ago
I dont understand the binary distribution requirement. For me julia is replacing python applications, and i distribute those as packages via poetry build and pypi.
- ubj 3y ago
  AoT compiled binaries and libraries are fundamental building blocks for distributing software and running it quickly without latency. Julia itself calls AoT binaries, for example when calling Linear Algebra functions [1]. Chris Rackauckas's team had to leverage AoT compilation (i.e. system images) to reduce TTFX on DifferentialEquations.jl [2]. PyTorch and Tensorflow run without TTFX because they use AoT compiled binaries. What's more, most end users don't have to compile anything on their computer--they can simply download the binaries and libraries. For small scripts, yes you can simply distribute the package and have the user recompile on the fly. But imagine if your operating system had to recompile every time you turned the computer off. Or if an autonomous vehicle had to recompile an unseen patch of code while in motion. [1] https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/stdlib/LinearAlgebra/#Standard-functions https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/stdlib/LinearAlgebra/#Stand... [2] https://sciml.ai/news/2022/09/21/compile_time/ https://sciml.ai/news/2022/09/21/compile_time/
  - ChrisRackauckas 3y ago
    > Chris Rackauckas's team had to leverage AoT compilation (i.e. system images) to reduce TTFX on DifferentialEquations.jl [2]. In 2022 with Julia v1.8. See the edit from September. With Julia v1.10 it's mostly there without system image building since v1.9 added AoT compilation of packages during precompilation time and then v1.10 did a major improvement to that system. So as you said, AoT is required, though Julia now includes AoT as part of its package build system. I tend to not build system images anymore because of that, though there are a few more steps to get it to fully AoT (i.e. some load time reductions).
npalli 3y ago
Interesting that you mention about binary size and AoT compilation. I just saw a video from Jeff Bezanson - What's the deal with Julia binary sizes? Might of some interest. Large reduction in binary sizes from back in the day. https://youtu.be/kNslvU3WD4M?si=0gN_2auQAnwSnQlW https://youtu.be/kNslvU3WD4M?si=0gN_2auQAnwSnQlW
- ubj 3y ago
  Nice! This is a positive trend. Great to see some additional options for compiling Julia code.
Herbstluft 3y ago
Fully agree. The biggest bummer when it comes to Julia for me is that proper compilation is just an afterthought. And it seems like compilation of portable binaries will remain a second class citizen inside the Julia project? Julia with a proper `Julia -compile` flag that results in a proper binary of reasonable size would catapult Julia from "kinda nice, but limited" into "one of my favourite languages" territory.

by ubj 3y ago

banku_brougham 3y ago

I dont understand the binary distribution requirement. For me julia is replacing python applications, and i distribute those as packages via poetry build and pypi.

ubj 3y ago
AoT compiled binaries and libraries are fundamental building blocks for distributing software and running it quickly without latency. Julia itself calls AoT binaries, for example when calling Linear Algebra functions [1]. Chris Rackauckas's team had to leverage AoT compilation (i.e. system images) to reduce TTFX on DifferentialEquations.jl [2]. PyTorch and Tensorflow run without TTFX because they use AoT compiled binaries. What's more, most end users don't have to compile anything on their computer--they can simply download the binaries and libraries. For small scripts, yes you can simply distribute the package and have the user recompile on the fly. But imagine if your operating system had to recompile every time you turned the computer off. Or if an autonomous vehicle had to recompile an unseen patch of code while in motion. [1] https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/stdlib/LinearAlgebra/#Standard-functions https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/stdlib/LinearAlgebra/#Stand... [2] https://sciml.ai/news/2022/09/21/compile_time/ https://sciml.ai/news/2022/09/21/compile_time/
- ChrisRackauckas 3y ago
  > Chris Rackauckas's team had to leverage AoT compilation (i.e. system images) to reduce TTFX on DifferentialEquations.jl [2]. In 2022 with Julia v1.8. See the edit from September. With Julia v1.10 it's mostly there without system image building since v1.9 added AoT compilation of packages during precompilation time and then v1.10 did a major improvement to that system. So as you said, AoT is required, though Julia now includes AoT as part of its package build system. I tend to not build system images anymore because of that, though there are a few more steps to get it to fully AoT (i.e. some load time reductions).

npalli 3y ago

Interesting that you mention about binary size and AoT compilation. I just saw a video from Jeff Bezanson - What's the deal with Julia binary sizes? Might of some interest. Large reduction in binary sizes from back in the day. https://youtu.be/kNslvU3WD4M?si=0gN_2auQAnwSnQlW https://youtu.be/kNslvU3WD4M?si=0gN_2auQAnwSnQlW

ubj 3y ago
Nice! This is a positive trend. Great to see some additional options for compiling Julia code.

Herbstluft 3y ago

Fully agree. The biggest bummer when it comes to Julia for me is that proper compilation is just an afterthought. And it seems like compilation of portable binaries will remain a second class citizen inside the Julia project? Julia with a proper `Julia -compile` flag that results in a proper binary of reasonable size would catapult Julia from "kinda nice, but limited" into "one of my favourite languages" territory.