5 ms·

> This planet cannot support many GBs for every human Interesting perspective, do you have evidence to support this? Older computers almost always use more el

by jbm 3y ago

> This planet cannot support many GBs for every human Interesting perspective, do you have evidence to support this? Older computers almost always use more electricity than newer ones, I don't see how this is a real thing.

usr1106 3y ago
No exact calculation about GBs, just a general gut feeling that current resource consumption in the industrialized world is completely unsustainable. With smarter usage only a fraction of resources is needed for still decent user experience.
amatecha 3y ago
In terms of reduction of usage of resources, using an already-existing computer is considered better than manufacturing new hardware. OECD suggests[0] embracing a circular economy to reduce production of waste and consumption of resources. Notably, in the province I reside, 98% of electricity is provided by renewable resources[1]. The electrical grid is already there, and the computer I already have is also already there. Generally speaking, no more resource extraction or pollution of the planet is necessary for me to continue on my computing activities with my existing hardware. All I have time to write right now, but check out the concept of permacomputing and frugal computing... [2][3] [0] https://www.oecd.org/environment/waste/OECD-G20-Towards-a-more-Resource-Efficient-and-Circular-Economy.pdf https://www.oecd.org/environment/waste/OECD-G20-Towards-a-mo... (p.24) [1] https://choose.bchydro.com/why-choose-bc/clean-energy https://choose.bchydro.com/why-choose-bc/clean-energy [2] http://viznut.fi/texts-en/permacomputing.html http://viznut.fi/texts-en/permacomputing.html / https://permacomputing.net https://permacomputing.net [3] https://limited.systems/articles/frugal-computing/ https://limited.systems/articles/frugal-computing/
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  Circular can also mean recycling and resource recovery. That's what makes it a circle (-: But it's nice that you live near hydro, and you don't need a more powerful computer.
  - Qwertious 3y ago
    >Circular can also mean recycling and resource recovery. In theory it can, in practice todays computers will be unrecyclable e-waste.
usr1106 3y ago
> Older computers almost always use more electricity than newer ones, I don't see how this is a real thing. This computer is not on 24/7, but only very limited hours. So manufacturing a new one would a relatively high share. Energy is the reason why I wrote ARM would probably be even better. But the Atom is pretty good too. The machine is fanless and when it was new the battery lasted nearly 7 hours (not for watching videos of course). Now that it's pretty old and still on it's first battery it still lasts several hours. Enough to read some news and do some trip planning.
arp242 3y ago
> Older computers almost always use more electricity than newer ones The differences are marginal; my 7 year old i5 really doesn't use that much more power than a modern i5, if it even uses more power in the first place (I don't have a good way to measure this, and with sleep states and whatnot you really need to measure this to be sure). A few years ago I calculated how much impact it would be if everyone would run a 30W server at their home 24/7; I originally started doing that because someone said that "everyone should just self-host these things at their home", and I wanted to demonstrate that this would have a horrible environmental impact. And turned out my initial thoughts were wrong, and impact was so small that actually, it didn't matter, and I didn't even both posting my comment. And even if there would be a difference, energy of manufacture tends to outweigh energy usage of usage. There's a long chain of mining, transport, etc. etc. behind all of that I didn't calculate this, but usually the energy differences really do need to be quite substantial to justify the energy usage of manufacture. Maybe I was horribly wrong and made a mistake; I didn't re-do the calculations for this comment out of laziness. But I do strongly encourage anyone to actually calculate or look up what the impact is, because initial "it's bad for the environment"-feelings could very well be wrong, and no one is served if attention, money, and effort is spent in the wrong places.
- znpy 3y ago
  > A few years ago I calculated how much impact it would be if everyone would run a 30W server at their home 24/7; I originally started doing that because someone said that "everyone should just self-host these things at their home", and I wanted to demonstrate that this would have a horrible environmental impact. This is non-sensical. Up to ten years ago most lightbulbs consumed 40-60 watts EACH and no one bat an eye. Heck, the cristmas lights on my Christmas tree absorb ~60 watts with the default pattern (i know because i measured it). I had to manually set a light pattern that consumed only 20W. And no one is crying about Christmas lighting. Consuming 30W 24/7 for home is absolutely feasible, all modern homes can do that just by replacing a single old tungsten-based lightbulb with a led one.
  - amatecha 3y ago
    Yup, seriously, people think an old 35w laptop is inefficient (???) meanwhile burning 60-100w light bulbs all over their home. Yeah, these days LED light bulbs are becoming more commonplace (8-13w or whatever), but even then, if your laptop consumed the equivalent of a few LED light bulbs I think that's pretty darn acceptable. The AC adapter for this X230 I'm using maxes out at 65w output, which I doubt it often hits due to my light usage and power-efficient configuration. A single light bulb.
Qwertious 3y ago
>Older computers almost always use more electricity than newer ones, I don't see how this is a real thing. The vast majority of energy needed for computers is in the manufacturing. As [1] shows, the embodied energy in laptops has stayed largely constant over the last decade. The best thing you can do for the environment is to keep using an old laptop instead of throwing it out and replacing it, even if the new laptop draws fewer watts from the wall. [1] https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/12/how-and-why-i-stopped-buying-new-laptops.html https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/12/how-and-why-i-stoppe...

by jbm 3y ago

usr1106 3y ago

No exact calculation about GBs, just a general gut feeling that current resource consumption in the industrialized world is completely unsustainable. With smarter usage only a fraction of resources is needed for still decent user experience.

amatecha 3y ago

In terms of reduction of usage of resources, using an already-existing computer is considered better than manufacturing new hardware. OECD suggests[0] embracing a circular economy to reduce production of waste and consumption of resources. Notably, in the province I reside, 98% of electricity is provided by renewable resources[1]. The electrical grid is already there, and the computer I already have is also already there. Generally speaking, no more resource extraction or pollution of the planet is necessary for me to continue on my computing activities with my existing hardware. All I have time to write right now, but check out the concept of permacomputing and frugal computing... [2][3] [0] https://www.oecd.org/environment/waste/OECD-G20-Towards-a-more-Resource-Efficient-and-Circular-Economy.pdf https://www.oecd.org/environment/waste/OECD-G20-Towards-a-mo... (p.24) [1] https://choose.bchydro.com/why-choose-bc/clean-energy https://choose.bchydro.com/why-choose-bc/clean-energy [2] http://viznut.fi/texts-en/permacomputing.html http://viznut.fi/texts-en/permacomputing.html / https://permacomputing.net https://permacomputing.net [3] https://limited.systems/articles/frugal-computing/ https://limited.systems/articles/frugal-computing/

robertlagrant 3y ago
Circular can also mean recycling and resource recovery. That's what makes it a circle (-: But it's nice that you live near hydro, and you don't need a more powerful computer.
- Qwertious 3y ago
  >Circular can also mean recycling and resource recovery. In theory it can, in practice todays computers will be unrecyclable e-waste.

usr1106 3y ago

> Older computers almost always use more electricity than newer ones, I don't see how this is a real thing. This computer is not on 24/7, but only very limited hours. So manufacturing a new one would a relatively high share. Energy is the reason why I wrote ARM would probably be even better. But the Atom is pretty good too. The machine is fanless and when it was new the battery lasted nearly 7 hours (not for watching videos of course). Now that it's pretty old and still on it's first battery it still lasts several hours. Enough to read some news and do some trip planning.

arp242 3y ago

> Older computers almost always use more electricity than newer ones The differences are marginal; my 7 year old i5 really doesn't use that much more power than a modern i5, if it even uses more power in the first place (I don't have a good way to measure this, and with sleep states and whatnot you really need to measure this to be sure). A few years ago I calculated how much impact it would be if everyone would run a 30W server at their home 24/7; I originally started doing that because someone said that "everyone should just self-host these things at their home", and I wanted to demonstrate that this would have a horrible environmental impact. And turned out my initial thoughts were wrong, and impact was so small that actually, it didn't matter, and I didn't even both posting my comment. And even if there would be a difference, energy of manufacture tends to outweigh energy usage of usage. There's a long chain of mining, transport, etc. etc. behind all of that I didn't calculate this, but usually the energy differences really do need to be quite substantial to justify the energy usage of manufacture. Maybe I was horribly wrong and made a mistake; I didn't re-do the calculations for this comment out of laziness. But I do strongly encourage anyone to actually calculate or look up what the impact is, because initial "it's bad for the environment"-feelings could very well be wrong, and no one is served if attention, money, and effort is spent in the wrong places.

znpy 3y ago
> A few years ago I calculated how much impact it would be if everyone would run a 30W server at their home 24/7; I originally started doing that because someone said that "everyone should just self-host these things at their home", and I wanted to demonstrate that this would have a horrible environmental impact. This is non-sensical. Up to ten years ago most lightbulbs consumed 40-60 watts EACH and no one bat an eye. Heck, the cristmas lights on my Christmas tree absorb ~60 watts with the default pattern (i know because i measured it). I had to manually set a light pattern that consumed only 20W. And no one is crying about Christmas lighting. Consuming 30W 24/7 for home is absolutely feasible, all modern homes can do that just by replacing a single old tungsten-based lightbulb with a led one.
- amatecha 3y ago
  Yup, seriously, people think an old 35w laptop is inefficient (???) meanwhile burning 60-100w light bulbs all over their home. Yeah, these days LED light bulbs are becoming more commonplace (8-13w or whatever), but even then, if your laptop consumed the equivalent of a few LED light bulbs I think that's pretty darn acceptable. The AC adapter for this X230 I'm using maxes out at 65w output, which I doubt it often hits due to my light usage and power-efficient configuration. A single light bulb.

Qwertious 3y ago

>Older computers almost always use more electricity than newer ones, I don't see how this is a real thing. The vast majority of energy needed for computers is in the manufacturing. As [1] shows, the embodied energy in laptops has stayed largely constant over the last decade. The best thing you can do for the environment is to keep using an old laptop instead of throwing it out and replacing it, even if the new laptop draws fewer watts from the wall. [1] https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/12/how-and-why-i-stopped-buying-new-laptops.html https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/12/how-and-why-i-stoppe...