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The Singapore thing is about status, not freedom. For the last 15 years I've lived in various places around the world, and for all of them a private car is the

The Singapore thing is about status, not freedom. For the last 15 years I've lived in various places around the world, and for all of them a private car is the most frustrating, least enabling method of transport available. Finding parking is a nightmare, traffic is a nightmare, having to concentrate on the idiots around me is a nightmare, not being able to drink when I go out is a nightmare, dealing with the mechanical problems of the vehicle itself is a nightmare, dealing with the bureaucracy of owning a car is a nightmare. This isn't what freedom looks like. Most freeing? Riding a motorbike in Phnom Penh. Berlin's 5 different public transport systems. Walking everywhere in Bristol (UK). Mexico City's excellent underground.

Erratic6576 3y ago
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omnimus 3y ago
Add riding a bike (or electric bike) in most of Dutch cities. It can be even fun.
- j4yav 3y ago
  I have a car and a bike in the Netherlands. Most everyone I know has both. Both are nice to have at different times, and I've never experienced any of the nightmares GP is describing. I was curious so I just checked, and the number of cars is just shy of the number of people of driving age, even in the bicycle paradise of the Netherlands.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    A difference is most Dutch families have one car, whereas the majority of American families have two or more.
    - cheschire 3y ago
      At least three of my neighbors I can see from my front door here in America have 5 to 8 cars. But that’s also because they have to be multigenerational to afford a SFH these days.
    - M95D 3y ago
      Because in America, if you car breaks down, you're fscked.
      - acdha 3y ago
        This is true, and I think it’s driving a lot of generational backlash because a lot of younger people are realizing they may never be able to afford to have a commute under an hour, or paid well enough to ignore the mounting costs of that lifestyle, especially as a lot of the infrastructure costs are going up sharply to deal with maintenance.
  - timwaagh 3y ago
    My data does not align. We have 15 million adults and nine million cars.
    - j4yav 3y ago
      It's possible I was looking at motor vehicles rather than specifically cars. Even six out of ten adults having a personal car would be a statstic I think that would surprise people who think everyone here only rides bikes.
  - omnimus 3y ago
    Sure but you cant bike and drive the car at the same time right? So they own a car and choose to bike. Imho this is even bigger win than people who have to bike because they cant afford a car. Lots of the peoples car needs would probably be covered by some form of car sharing but this is something car manufacturers hate and it has been always quite expensive. Maybe that will change. New driver licenses are rapidly dropping in europe. Lets see whats gonna happen but i think Netherlands/Flanders are for sure important pioneers to get inspired from.
    - j4yav 3y ago
      I'm not following how that makes the nightmares from GP that I was replying to true, or are you making a different point? I didn't mean to imply that riding a bike was useless or anti-fun if that's how it came across.
  - turquoisevar 3y ago
    I think those nightmares depend a bit on how many people own a car. > I was curious so I just checked, and the number of cars is just shy of the number of people of driving age, even in the bicycle paradise of the Netherlands. This might sound like a high amount of ownership, but if you compare it to some other countries then it’s not that bad (or impressive if that’s how you look at it). The Netherlands has 588 cars per 100k inhabitants v. 908 in the US as an example[0]. If you go down the rabbit hole and look at the sources for these numbers, you’ll find that in the US only 8% of households don’t own a car[1] v. 26% of households in the Netherlands[2]. 37.1% has two cars in the US and 21.9% has three or more in the US[1] v. 21% and 6% respectively in the Netherlands[2] I think it’s safe to say that there’s less cars on the road in the Netherlands and thus less of that nightmare scenario that is described in GP. That said, plenty of drivers in the Netherlands (not having the frame of reference of more busy countries) consider the Netherlands having “nightmares” for drivers. In particular when it comes to parking, where the main complaint is the price of parking and the lack of parking close to a destination. Personally I don’t consider it a nightmare but a blessing that a lot of Dutch downtown areas force parking on the outer edge, leaving the shopping areas as pedestrian only areas. But that doesn’t mean that other people with other interests don’t consider it a nightmare. Whenever, in the very rare instance, a city or town here in the US tries to marginally move towards such a situation, people start dusting off their pitchforks. Just the other day I saw someone losing their shit on Threads because someone suggested that it would combat sedentary lifestyle somewhat if you’d have to walk 10 minutes from where you’d park every once in a while. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_... 1: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/2023-car-ownership-statistics-162934620.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/2023-car-ownership-statistics... 2: https://www.kimnet.nl/binaries/kimnet/documenten/publicaties/2022/02/22/het-wijdverbreide-autobezit-in-nederland/KiM+brochure+Het+wijdverbreide+autobezit+in+Nederland_def+A.pdf https://www.kimnet.nl/binaries/kimnet/documenten/publicaties... in Dutch
nec4b 3y ago
I believe you, since you seem to be fixated to using cars for the cities. People living outside of cities have none of those problems. Cars are truly one of the freedom most enabling inventions in the history of the mankind.

Erratic6576 3y ago

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omnimus 3y ago

Add riding a bike (or electric bike) in most of Dutch cities. It can be even fun.

j4yav 3y ago
I have a car and a bike in the Netherlands. Most everyone I know has both. Both are nice to have at different times, and I've never experienced any of the nightmares GP is describing. I was curious so I just checked, and the number of cars is just shy of the number of people of driving age, even in the bicycle paradise of the Netherlands.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  A difference is most Dutch families have one car, whereas the majority of American families have two or more.
  - cheschire 3y ago
    At least three of my neighbors I can see from my front door here in America have 5 to 8 cars. But that’s also because they have to be multigenerational to afford a SFH these days.
  - M95D 3y ago
    Because in America, if you car breaks down, you're fscked.
    - acdha 3y ago
      This is true, and I think it’s driving a lot of generational backlash because a lot of younger people are realizing they may never be able to afford to have a commute under an hour, or paid well enough to ignore the mounting costs of that lifestyle, especially as a lot of the infrastructure costs are going up sharply to deal with maintenance.
- timwaagh 3y ago
  My data does not align. We have 15 million adults and nine million cars.
  - j4yav 3y ago
    It's possible I was looking at motor vehicles rather than specifically cars. Even six out of ten adults having a personal car would be a statstic I think that would surprise people who think everyone here only rides bikes.
- omnimus 3y ago
  Sure but you cant bike and drive the car at the same time right? So they own a car and choose to bike. Imho this is even bigger win than people who have to bike because they cant afford a car. Lots of the peoples car needs would probably be covered by some form of car sharing but this is something car manufacturers hate and it has been always quite expensive. Maybe that will change. New driver licenses are rapidly dropping in europe. Lets see whats gonna happen but i think Netherlands/Flanders are for sure important pioneers to get inspired from.
  - j4yav 3y ago
    I'm not following how that makes the nightmares from GP that I was replying to true, or are you making a different point? I didn't mean to imply that riding a bike was useless or anti-fun if that's how it came across.
- turquoisevar 3y ago
  I think those nightmares depend a bit on how many people own a car. > I was curious so I just checked, and the number of cars is just shy of the number of people of driving age, even in the bicycle paradise of the Netherlands. This might sound like a high amount of ownership, but if you compare it to some other countries then it’s not that bad (or impressive if that’s how you look at it). The Netherlands has 588 cars per 100k inhabitants v. 908 in the US as an example[0]. If you go down the rabbit hole and look at the sources for these numbers, you’ll find that in the US only 8% of households don’t own a car[1] v. 26% of households in the Netherlands[2]. 37.1% has two cars in the US and 21.9% has three or more in the US[1] v. 21% and 6% respectively in the Netherlands[2] I think it’s safe to say that there’s less cars on the road in the Netherlands and thus less of that nightmare scenario that is described in GP. That said, plenty of drivers in the Netherlands (not having the frame of reference of more busy countries) consider the Netherlands having “nightmares” for drivers. In particular when it comes to parking, where the main complaint is the price of parking and the lack of parking close to a destination. Personally I don’t consider it a nightmare but a blessing that a lot of Dutch downtown areas force parking on the outer edge, leaving the shopping areas as pedestrian only areas. But that doesn’t mean that other people with other interests don’t consider it a nightmare. Whenever, in the very rare instance, a city or town here in the US tries to marginally move towards such a situation, people start dusting off their pitchforks. Just the other day I saw someone losing their shit on Threads because someone suggested that it would combat sedentary lifestyle somewhat if you’d have to walk 10 minutes from where you’d park every once in a while. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_... 1: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/2023-car-ownership-statistics-162934620.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/2023-car-ownership-statistics... 2: https://www.kimnet.nl/binaries/kimnet/documenten/publicaties/2022/02/22/het-wijdverbreide-autobezit-in-nederland/KiM+brochure+Het+wijdverbreide+autobezit+in+Nederland_def+A.pdf https://www.kimnet.nl/binaries/kimnet/documenten/publicaties... in Dutch

nec4b 3y ago

I believe you, since you seem to be fixated to using cars for the cities. People living outside of cities have none of those problems. Cars are truly one of the freedom most enabling inventions in the history of the mankind.