5 ms·

Roads safe for cycling is half the battle. The other half is around zoning and mixing residential with businesses.

johannes1234321 3y ago
That's not half the battle. Undoing the zoning is 90% of the battle. Cycle paths can be added at a step by step basis and keeping some gaps isn't an issue and if some paths aren't used much initially there isn't a big problem. Also sometime a single line painted on the road is enough for a start. If businesses settle in dezoned area they need to attract an audience quickly, but the will be less attractive than the hyperstore or mall for car drivers and depend on a bunch of other businesses in walkable distance. Financing the period till it works can be tough and will cycle through a few businesses till a working mixture is established. And even then: In the car centric land usage, distances are too far quickly for quickly walking over to the bakery for fetching bread for breakfast, 15 minutes as a guidance for reaching everyday shops, doctor offices, a bar, ... density has to be increased. But people won't give up their yards.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  "Also sometime a single line painted on the road is enough for a start." I have seldom seen this solution get respected by cars. It is better than nothing, but it is a weak start, when the goal is save cycling.
Der_Einzige 3y ago
Legalize biking on the sidewalk nationwide. I don’t want to bike on the road for any reason. Bikers have far far lower chances of hurting pedestrians than cars do of bikers.
- fipar 3y ago
  That’s a cultural and not a technical problem. My experience is limited, but it is that, when motorists are idiots, bikers are idiots too. Yes, sure, less chance of getting killed by a bicycle (though serious risk of injury if you’re and old-enough pedestrian). My point is: if you live in a place where a lot of drivers behave like selfish idiots to other drivers, bikers, and pedestrians, then a lot of bikers will behave like selfish idiots too. I don’t have a solution, but I just wanted to add the data point because I hate most bikers with about the same intensity I hate most drivers. As a pedestrian, both groups ignore me and put me at risk every single f-word day.
- filmgirlcw 3y ago
  Absolutely not. In Seattle, cyclists already abuse the sidewalks when there are dedicated bike lanes everywhere. And the cyclists on the sidewalks are the worst of the worst who will plow over pedestrians without even pausing. No fucking thanks. Enforce actual bike lanes and ensure people biking following the laws and rules of the road and we'd be a lot better off. But letting people too dumb to wear helmets* or to understand why they need to be in a bike lane and not on a sidewalk onto the sidewalk with zero consequence? Absolutely not. * I do not even remotely care about the anti-helmet arguments. I’m sure you’re a cyclist who has done all the research and proof as to why if you’re good and paying attention a helmet is unnecessary or even bad. Fine. Most people on bikes and most people in cars aren’t you. Wear a helmet!
- NewsyHacker 3y ago
  That might work in highly urban areas, but suburban USA is notorious for sidewalks that end suddenly, forcing a cyclist to return to the road. And sometimes that involves dropping off a curb and then later having to get the bike back up a curb.
- quantified 3y ago
  As a bicyclist: no. The problem is the disparity of speed between travelers, same as for a highway. Pedestrians appear suddenly or don't know about your sudden appearance or intended motions, and pain or injury results.
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    As another bicyclist: yes. That's how we do it here in Tokyo. Almost no one rides on the roads, despite the painted bike lanes that are always ignored by cars and delivery trucks using them as parking spaces.
    - klausa 3y ago
      As someone who just moved here: this is by far my least favorite part of moving around in the city; and having to dodge bikes on the sidewalks is the worst part of my commute.
      - shiroiuma 3y ago
        Then stop dodging them: pedestrians like you are the worst. Just walk in a straight line where you're going and stop moving around so erratically; let the cyclists go around you. Anyway, it would be nice if they built some nice, protected bike lanes, but they'd have to remove lanes from the cars to do that.
        klausa 3y ago
        That doesn't really work on narrower walking paths, with other pedestrians also coming from the other directions; but maybe I'm just unused to it. I'll... try to be more assertive, I guess we'll see how that works out.
        shiroiuma 3y ago
        It reminds me of a mouse I once hit on my bike (not in Tokyo, it was a rural place). The mouse darted into the road, so I tried to go around him. But then he changed direction to avoid me, and so I ran over him. I ended up having to crush his skull to put him out of his misery. If he had just continued in a predictable, straight line, he would have survived. You should rent one of the Docomo red rental bikes and ride it around some, and then you can see what it's like being one of the cyclists. The last thing you want as a cyclist is pedestrians who make unpredictable movements as you're passing. Also remember, pedestrians here have the absolute right-of-way, and cyclists are pretty much always at fault if there's a collision.
- r00fus 3y ago
  Sidewalks are in fact, more dangerous. Tree roots, unseen level changes, pets, not to mention pedestrians - it's tolerable if you're a kid going 3-7 mph with training wheels but for everyone else hitting on of those obstructions are a decent cycling speed of 12-15mph could cause you to flip. Not to mention cars won't see you so they will turn into or pull out of driveways, or fail to stop for you as you're trying to cross a road.
- Auracle 3y ago
  Maybe not in urban places, but it absolutely makes no sense that it's not legal in my rural area to bike down (some) trails/sidewalks that run along roads. Usually if you bike down them it's rare to see another person even on them, and and motorists surely aren't on the lookout for bikers like they should be/are in some cities. They even put a bike lane in on the road at my parent's house. Again, there's a perfectly usable trail/sidewalk right alongside the road that's far, far from busy, and the bike lane is also used for parking. I'm not going to swerve in and out of the road when there's a place that's 100% safe to bike down. Hell, for that matter - laws be damned, I bike down the left side of the road here. I want to see a car that's not paying attention to me coming, where I'll at least have a chance to react. Again, it's not like a city where you're sometimes in the flow of traffic. The cars are going 40mph when I'm going maybe 15mph?

That's not half the battle. Undoing the zoning is 90% of the battle. Cycle paths can be added at a step by step basis and keeping some gaps isn't an issue and if some paths aren't used much initially there isn't a big problem. Also sometime a single line painted on the road is enough for a start. If businesses settle in dezoned area they need to attract an audience quickly, but the will be less attractive than the hyperstore or mall for car drivers and depend on a bunch of other businesses in walkable distance. Financing the period till it works can be tough and will cycle through a few businesses till a working mixture is established. And even then: In the car centric land usage, distances are too far quickly for quickly walking over to the bakery for fetching bread for breakfast, 15 minutes as a guidance for reaching everyday shops, doctor offices, a bar, ... density has to be increased. But people won't give up their yards.

hutzlibu 3y ago
"Also sometime a single line painted on the road is enough for a start." I have seldom seen this solution get respected by cars. It is better than nothing, but it is a weak start, when the goal is save cycling.

Der_Einzige 3y ago

Legalize biking on the sidewalk nationwide. I don’t want to bike on the road for any reason. Bikers have far far lower chances of hurting pedestrians than cars do of bikers.

fipar 3y ago
That’s a cultural and not a technical problem. My experience is limited, but it is that, when motorists are idiots, bikers are idiots too. Yes, sure, less chance of getting killed by a bicycle (though serious risk of injury if you’re and old-enough pedestrian). My point is: if you live in a place where a lot of drivers behave like selfish idiots to other drivers, bikers, and pedestrians, then a lot of bikers will behave like selfish idiots too. I don’t have a solution, but I just wanted to add the data point because I hate most bikers with about the same intensity I hate most drivers. As a pedestrian, both groups ignore me and put me at risk every single f-word day.
filmgirlcw 3y ago
Absolutely not. In Seattle, cyclists already abuse the sidewalks when there are dedicated bike lanes everywhere. And the cyclists on the sidewalks are the worst of the worst who will plow over pedestrians without even pausing. No fucking thanks. Enforce actual bike lanes and ensure people biking following the laws and rules of the road and we'd be a lot better off. But letting people too dumb to wear helmets* or to understand why they need to be in a bike lane and not on a sidewalk onto the sidewalk with zero consequence? Absolutely not. * I do not even remotely care about the anti-helmet arguments. I’m sure you’re a cyclist who has done all the research and proof as to why if you’re good and paying attention a helmet is unnecessary or even bad. Fine. Most people on bikes and most people in cars aren’t you. Wear a helmet!
NewsyHacker 3y ago
That might work in highly urban areas, but suburban USA is notorious for sidewalks that end suddenly, forcing a cyclist to return to the road. And sometimes that involves dropping off a curb and then later having to get the bike back up a curb.
quantified 3y ago
As a bicyclist: no. The problem is the disparity of speed between travelers, same as for a highway. Pedestrians appear suddenly or don't know about your sudden appearance or intended motions, and pain or injury results.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  As another bicyclist: yes. That's how we do it here in Tokyo. Almost no one rides on the roads, despite the painted bike lanes that are always ignored by cars and delivery trucks using them as parking spaces.
  - klausa 3y ago
    As someone who just moved here: this is by far my least favorite part of moving around in the city; and having to dodge bikes on the sidewalks is the worst part of my commute.
    - shiroiuma 3y ago
      Then stop dodging them: pedestrians like you are the worst. Just walk in a straight line where you're going and stop moving around so erratically; let the cyclists go around you. Anyway, it would be nice if they built some nice, protected bike lanes, but they'd have to remove lanes from the cars to do that.
      - klausa 3y ago
        That doesn't really work on narrower walking paths, with other pedestrians also coming from the other directions; but maybe I'm just unused to it. I'll... try to be more assertive, I guess we'll see how that works out.
        shiroiuma 3y ago
        It reminds me of a mouse I once hit on my bike (not in Tokyo, it was a rural place). The mouse darted into the road, so I tried to go around him. But then he changed direction to avoid me, and so I ran over him. I ended up having to crush his skull to put him out of his misery. If he had just continued in a predictable, straight line, he would have survived. You should rent one of the Docomo red rental bikes and ride it around some, and then you can see what it's like being one of the cyclists. The last thing you want as a cyclist is pedestrians who make unpredictable movements as you're passing. Also remember, pedestrians here have the absolute right-of-way, and cyclists are pretty much always at fault if there's a collision.
r00fus 3y ago
Sidewalks are in fact, more dangerous. Tree roots, unseen level changes, pets, not to mention pedestrians - it's tolerable if you're a kid going 3-7 mph with training wheels but for everyone else hitting on of those obstructions are a decent cycling speed of 12-15mph could cause you to flip. Not to mention cars won't see you so they will turn into or pull out of driveways, or fail to stop for you as you're trying to cross a road.
Auracle 3y ago
Maybe not in urban places, but it absolutely makes no sense that it's not legal in my rural area to bike down (some) trails/sidewalks that run along roads. Usually if you bike down them it's rare to see another person even on them, and and motorists surely aren't on the lookout for bikers like they should be/are in some cities. They even put a bike lane in on the road at my parent's house. Again, there's a perfectly usable trail/sidewalk right alongside the road that's far, far from busy, and the bike lane is also used for parking. I'm not going to swerve in and out of the road when there's a place that's 100% safe to bike down. Hell, for that matter - laws be damned, I bike down the left side of the road here. I want to see a car that's not paying attention to me coming, where I'll at least have a chance to react. Again, it's not like a city where you're sometimes in the flow of traffic. The cars are going 40mph when I'm going maybe 15mph?