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Things like newspapers and comic books and whatnot have had ads for over a hundred years. These types of things partly being sponsored by ads is hardly a new co

by arp242 3y ago

Things like newspapers and comic books and whatnot have had ads for over a hundred years. These types of things partly being sponsored by ads is hardly a new concept. Ads are not going away. I would argue that the internet has gone rather overboard with it, but that's a different thing.

JohnFen 3y ago
For me, the problem that internet ads have that older media ads didn't is all the spying that comes with them. It's the spying that elevates them from being incredibly annoying to being just plain evil.
- arp242 3y ago
  That's not an ad problem, that's a tracking problem. I think it's important not to conflate the two concepts. But other than that, yes, I agree.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    They are two different things, but you don't get ads without the spying. Often, you get the spying even if you block ads.
    - arp242 3y ago
      That's not true; there is nothing preventing anyone from serving ads without tracking, and I'm pretty sure there are solutions out there that do exactly that, even if they're not the most commonly used. Like I said, ads were viable in print, well before the internet. Just <img href="/ad.png"> would work, and has no tracking and is essential the same as print media ads (or those YouTube sponsors for that matter). While this would probably net in less income than e.g. the Google ad stuff, it's completely viable and I'm sure there are people and companies doing something like that. But uBlock will block that, because it's an adblocker and not a trackblocker, and that's clearly an ad. That's perfectly fine, but what I want is a trackblocker
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        > there is nothing preventing anyone from serving ads without tracking I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's not done.
        arp242 3y ago
        How do you know? For starters there's a bunch of solutions out there that specifically market "non-tracking" as a feature. I assume they're being used. Come to think of it, you're on a site with track-free ads right now: the ycombinator launches/hiring posts really are just ads. And whatever the status-quo exactly is right now, what I responded to was "if something is not sustainable without ads then it's not a good business model", and tracking really doesn't come in to play in discussing to what degree the very concept of ads is or isn't desirable, as that's just an entirely separate issue.
        Nextgrid 3y ago
        > that specifically market "non-tracking" as a feature Which ones? All the non-tracking, supposedly-GDPR-compliant ads/analytics out there just use a convoluted and overcomplicated interpretation of the GDPR to claim their solution complies while it ultimately doesn't, or stretch the "legitimate interest" definition quite a bit. For example, if it's able to reidentify a user coming back to a website, then it doesn't matter if they hash the IP address 20 times which is salted with the outcome of a crystal ball and all under the supervision of a magic unicorn, it's still processing personal data for non-essential purposes and should require explicit consent.
        arp242 3y ago
        What's the superlative of conflation? That's what bringing analytics into the discussion here is.
        Nextgrid 3y ago
        I'm just sharing the experience that most of these "privacy" products (whether ads or analytics - the latter seem very popular on HN) only make that claim because of an outlandish interpretation of the GDPR or whatever privacy law they're trying to work around.

by arp242 3y ago

JohnFen 3y ago

For me, the problem that internet ads have that older media ads didn't is all the spying that comes with them. It's the spying that elevates them from being incredibly annoying to being just plain evil.

arp242 3y ago
That's not an ad problem, that's a tracking problem. I think it's important not to conflate the two concepts. But other than that, yes, I agree.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  They are two different things, but you don't get ads without the spying. Often, you get the spying even if you block ads.
  - arp242 3y ago
    That's not true; there is nothing preventing anyone from serving ads without tracking, and I'm pretty sure there are solutions out there that do exactly that, even if they're not the most commonly used. Like I said, ads were viable in print, well before the internet. Just <img href="/ad.png"> would work, and has no tracking and is essential the same as print media ads (or those YouTube sponsors for that matter). While this would probably net in less income than e.g. the Google ad stuff, it's completely viable and I'm sure there are people and companies doing something like that. But uBlock will block that, because it's an adblocker and not a trackblocker, and that's clearly an ad. That's perfectly fine, but what I want is a trackblocker
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > there is nothing preventing anyone from serving ads without tracking I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's not done.
      - arp242 3y ago
        How do you know? For starters there's a bunch of solutions out there that specifically market "non-tracking" as a feature. I assume they're being used. Come to think of it, you're on a site with track-free ads right now: the ycombinator launches/hiring posts really are just ads. And whatever the status-quo exactly is right now, what I responded to was "if something is not sustainable without ads then it's not a good business model", and tracking really doesn't come in to play in discussing to what degree the very concept of ads is or isn't desirable, as that's just an entirely separate issue.
        Nextgrid 3y ago
        > that specifically market "non-tracking" as a feature Which ones? All the non-tracking, supposedly-GDPR-compliant ads/analytics out there just use a convoluted and overcomplicated interpretation of the GDPR to claim their solution complies while it ultimately doesn't, or stretch the "legitimate interest" definition quite a bit. For example, if it's able to reidentify a user coming back to a website, then it doesn't matter if they hash the IP address 20 times which is salted with the outcome of a crystal ball and all under the supervision of a magic unicorn, it's still processing personal data for non-essential purposes and should require explicit consent.
        arp242 3y ago
        What's the superlative of conflation? That's what bringing analytics into the discussion here is.
        Nextgrid 3y ago
        I'm just sharing the experience that most of these "privacy" products (whether ads or analytics - the latter seem very popular on HN) only make that claim because of an outlandish interpretation of the GDPR or whatever privacy law they're trying to work around.