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Do you really think that when a Honda Civic reaches 200k miles, $150k were spent on it? And that includes overall age depreciation which I wouldn't count, beca

Do you really think that when a Honda Civic reaches 200k miles, $150k were spent on it? And that includes overall age depreciation which I wouldn't count, because most people that consider taking high speed rail would have a car anyway that's already depreciating.

eesmith 3y ago
Saying that something is an average cost does not mean everything costs that much. For example, at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38234972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38234972 you said you have a 2001 Chevy Silverado short bed regular cab 4x4 truck. That's going to have higher fuel costs than a Honda Civic. Even if you leave out depreciation - and low-mileage vehicles have a higher resale value than high-mileage ones so I don't think you can do that - you've still got to include maintenance and insurance, both of which depend on miles traveled. Most people don't run their cars up to 200K. I certainly haven't, and have no idea what work needs to be done to get it there. For a used 2018 Honda Civic LX 4D with MSRP $20,700.00 driven 10K/year, AAA's online calculator, available from that page, estimates: Total Driving Cost Per Year $9,050.20 Per Mile $0.91 5-year Total $45,251.00 Costs Breakdown Cost per year 5-year Total Fuel $1,649.60 $8,248.00 MaintRepair $2,212.20 $11,061.00 Depreciation $2,115.60 $10,578.00 Insurance $1,890.00 $9,450.00 Fees & Taxes $546.20 $2,731.00 Finance Charges $636.60 $3,183.00 At 200K, that's 20 years, or well over $150K; closer to $200K. You can also see how they estimate MaintRepair will cost more than fuel, highlighting how fuel cost isn't the only important thing to think about.
- talldatethrow 3y ago
  This is supposed to be a forum where people think a little... You extrapolated depreciation due to age on a new car (which isn't anywhere near the same later), full coverage insurance that seems grossly over priced anyway (that people change to lower coverage as a car becomes worth less), taxes and fees that are not as high by the time a car is older, and you added $12000 of finance charges on a $20000 car. It does not cost $9k a year to drive a used Honda Civic. Also, I don't take my Silverado to LA unless I want to for fun. I usually take my Chevy Volt. I'm never taking a train unless maybe I'm going down there to buy a vehicle and drive or ride it back.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    It’s the same bad math that says it costs $250k to raise a kid so the family down the street with five kids must have access to $1.25 million.
    - talldatethrow 3y ago
      Exactly. I'm from the central valley, where the less money you have the more kids you have and the happier and more fulfilled you and your kids seem. My GF teaches in a popular silicon valley suburb where the average parent makes $300k+ and the kids are either insane, depressed, autistic, sociopaths, or 4 years behind on their reading and math levels.
    - eesmith 3y ago
      Yes, that's why cherry-picking a Honda Civic reaching 200K miles is an outlier which does not provide insight on the average vehicle operating cost per mile. It's also bad math to say the only cost to driving 383 miles is the fuel. If you would believe talldatethrow's math, you should get a job driving your car for a CA state job. You would get reimbursed $0.625 /mile for something which costs you no more than $100/383 miles = $0.26/mile. The extra $0.37/mile at 30 mph is an extra $10/hour of income. I don't think the government is really that generous, do you?
      - talldatethrow 3y ago
        1, I used a Honda Civic because its a great car. If you choose to run this experiment with a NICER car, you've already proven that you are ok paying a premium for luxury or 'premium' experience. Thus, you're clearly ok spending extra for a nicer experience of being in your nice car and not having to park, wait, ride, rent car, return car, wait, etc. And I assure you, I know many people that get paid miles for using their personal car for work, and flat out consider it a source of income because of how favorably it is paid out.
  - eesmith 3y ago
    > due to age on a new car As I wrote, I chose a used car. As I wrote, I have no idea what expenses are needed to get a car to 200K miles, and it hardly matters for this discussion, does it?, as very few people do that. The point of showing the breakdown was to highlight that maintenance for the car you showed was more than the fuel cost, which is why your original estimate, based only on fuel cost, did not reflect the true price of driving a car that distance. I do know that it's unwise to consider only gas money as the cost to get somewhere. There's a reason GSA mileage reimbursement is $0.67/mile and California's is $0.625 /mile. You show your math for why your numbers are correct. And remember, you can't look at the cost for a car which reached 200K miles and assume that's the normal cost, because it excludes all Hondas which were scrapped before then, eg, because any damage or repairs needed were not economically worthwhile. > I usually take my Chevy Volt. You have at least two cars, neither of which is a Honda Civic? Did you pick a Civic because you knew it was an outlier of some sort? You have plenty of money - enough to afford at least two cars. Of course a free high-speed rail trip would do little to change your mind; you aren't affected by costs in the several hundred dollar range.
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  This is insane. There is no way that Civic drivers are spending 2.2k USD per year on maintenance! This dumb tool has no idea how insanely low are maintenance costs for a Civic. Please: Civic drivers: Share some ridiculous stories of 200K+ miles, but no major repairs. This forum will flooded...
  - eesmith 3y ago
    The Reverend Bayes tells us that using the precondition "Honda with 200K+ miles, but no major repairs" will not give the average cost across all cars. What of the Honda owners whose car after 130K miles needed major repairs but decided instead to junk it and buy another car? Why focus on a compact car when so many people have bigger vehicles? Okay, so AAA's calculator is insane. Got better numbers? https://caredge.com/honda/maintenance https://caredge.com/honda/maintenance says "Honda maintenance costs an average of $428 per year" but also shows the estimated annual costs exceed $428 after the 4th year, and reaches $1660 after 12 years, saying "Honda models average around $7,827 for maintenance and repair costs during their first 10 years of service." or $782/year, which is 1/3rd that of AAA. For a 5 year old Civic, it estimates maintenance costs across the next 5 years as 601+752+1057+1178+1291 = $4,879 which is about $976/year or 10 cents per mile. Is that more reasonable? It still shows that your estimate of max $.26/mile for fuel should be $.36/mile for fuel+maintenance. And for some reason you don't want to include depreciation, even though mileage certainly affects warranty coverage, insurance coverage, and resale value. Consider that Edmund's estimates a 2019 Volt Hatchback LT 4dr Hatchback to cost over $2,000 in maintenance and repairs in its 5th year. https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/2019/cost-to-own/ https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/2019/cost-to-own/ (Also $2,000 for 2017 at https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/2017/cost-to-own/ https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/2017/cost-to-own/ .) There's a jump in costs at the 5th year, I'm thinking because it assumes 15,000 miles per year, which means the the limited warranty and powertrain warranty have both run out by the 60,000 miles reached the 4th year. Did you pay for your Volt in cash or did you finance? Was it new? What model year is it? How long do you plan to keep it? How often do you drive LA to San Francisco vs. your total mileage? How typical is your cost compared to others with the same model car? All of these affect your true cost of driving beyond simple fuel costs. Look, I totally get how you might prefer driving one of your cars to go to LA. But if you are going to justify it based on cost rather than personal preference you need to include the full cost, which is more complicated than just the price of fuel.

eesmith 3y ago

Saying that something is an average cost does not mean everything costs that much. For example, at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38234972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38234972 you said you have a 2001 Chevy Silverado short bed regular cab 4x4 truck. That's going to have higher fuel costs than a Honda Civic. Even if you leave out depreciation - and low-mileage vehicles have a higher resale value than high-mileage ones so I don't think you can do that - you've still got to include maintenance and insurance, both of which depend on miles traveled. Most people don't run their cars up to 200K. I certainly haven't, and have no idea what work needs to be done to get it there. For a used 2018 Honda Civic LX 4D with MSRP $20,700.00 driven 10K/year, AAA's online calculator, available from that page, estimates: Total Driving Cost Per Year $9,050.20 Per Mile $0.91 5-year Total $45,251.00 Costs Breakdown Cost per year 5-year Total Fuel $1,649.60 $8,248.00 MaintRepair $2,212.20 $11,061.00 Depreciation $2,115.60 $10,578.00 Insurance $1,890.00 $9,450.00 Fees & Taxes $546.20 $2,731.00 Finance Charges $636.60 $3,183.00 At 200K, that's 20 years, or well over $150K; closer to $200K. You can also see how they estimate MaintRepair will cost more than fuel, highlighting how fuel cost isn't the only important thing to think about.

talldatethrow 3y ago
This is supposed to be a forum where people think a little... You extrapolated depreciation due to age on a new car (which isn't anywhere near the same later), full coverage insurance that seems grossly over priced anyway (that people change to lower coverage as a car becomes worth less), taxes and fees that are not as high by the time a car is older, and you added $12000 of finance charges on a $20000 car. It does not cost $9k a year to drive a used Honda Civic. Also, I don't take my Silverado to LA unless I want to for fun. I usually take my Chevy Volt. I'm never taking a train unless maybe I'm going down there to buy a vehicle and drive or ride it back.
- bombcar 3y ago
  It’s the same bad math that says it costs $250k to raise a kid so the family down the street with five kids must have access to $1.25 million.
  - talldatethrow 3y ago
    Exactly. I'm from the central valley, where the less money you have the more kids you have and the happier and more fulfilled you and your kids seem. My GF teaches in a popular silicon valley suburb where the average parent makes $300k+ and the kids are either insane, depressed, autistic, sociopaths, or 4 years behind on their reading and math levels.
  - eesmith 3y ago
    Yes, that's why cherry-picking a Honda Civic reaching 200K miles is an outlier which does not provide insight on the average vehicle operating cost per mile. It's also bad math to say the only cost to driving 383 miles is the fuel. If you would believe talldatethrow's math, you should get a job driving your car for a CA state job. You would get reimbursed $0.625 /mile for something which costs you no more than $100/383 miles = $0.26/mile. The extra $0.37/mile at 30 mph is an extra $10/hour of income. I don't think the government is really that generous, do you?
    - talldatethrow 3y ago
      1, I used a Honda Civic because its a great car. If you choose to run this experiment with a NICER car, you've already proven that you are ok paying a premium for luxury or 'premium' experience. Thus, you're clearly ok spending extra for a nicer experience of being in your nice car and not having to park, wait, ride, rent car, return car, wait, etc. And I assure you, I know many people that get paid miles for using their personal car for work, and flat out consider it a source of income because of how favorably it is paid out.
- eesmith 3y ago
  > due to age on a new car As I wrote, I chose a used car. As I wrote, I have no idea what expenses are needed to get a car to 200K miles, and it hardly matters for this discussion, does it?, as very few people do that. The point of showing the breakdown was to highlight that maintenance for the car you showed was more than the fuel cost, which is why your original estimate, based only on fuel cost, did not reflect the true price of driving a car that distance. I do know that it's unwise to consider only gas money as the cost to get somewhere. There's a reason GSA mileage reimbursement is $0.67/mile and California's is $0.625 /mile. You show your math for why your numbers are correct. And remember, you can't look at the cost for a car which reached 200K miles and assume that's the normal cost, because it excludes all Hondas which were scrapped before then, eg, because any damage or repairs needed were not economically worthwhile. > I usually take my Chevy Volt. You have at least two cars, neither of which is a Honda Civic? Did you pick a Civic because you knew it was an outlier of some sort? You have plenty of money - enough to afford at least two cars. Of course a free high-speed rail trip would do little to change your mind; you aren't affected by costs in the several hundred dollar range.
throwaway2037 3y ago
This is insane. There is no way that Civic drivers are spending 2.2k USD per year on maintenance! This dumb tool has no idea how insanely low are maintenance costs for a Civic. Please: Civic drivers: Share some ridiculous stories of 200K+ miles, but no major repairs. This forum will flooded...
- eesmith 3y ago
  The Reverend Bayes tells us that using the precondition "Honda with 200K+ miles, but no major repairs" will not give the average cost across all cars. What of the Honda owners whose car after 130K miles needed major repairs but decided instead to junk it and buy another car? Why focus on a compact car when so many people have bigger vehicles? Okay, so AAA's calculator is insane. Got better numbers? https://caredge.com/honda/maintenance https://caredge.com/honda/maintenance says "Honda maintenance costs an average of $428 per year" but also shows the estimated annual costs exceed $428 after the 4th year, and reaches $1660 after 12 years, saying "Honda models average around $7,827 for maintenance and repair costs during their first 10 years of service." or $782/year, which is 1/3rd that of AAA. For a 5 year old Civic, it estimates maintenance costs across the next 5 years as 601+752+1057+1178+1291 = $4,879 which is about $976/year or 10 cents per mile. Is that more reasonable? It still shows that your estimate of max $.26/mile for fuel should be $.36/mile for fuel+maintenance. And for some reason you don't want to include depreciation, even though mileage certainly affects warranty coverage, insurance coverage, and resale value. Consider that Edmund's estimates a 2019 Volt Hatchback LT 4dr Hatchback to cost over $2,000 in maintenance and repairs in its 5th year. https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/2019/cost-to-own/ https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/2019/cost-to-own/ (Also $2,000 for 2017 at https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/2017/cost-to-own/ https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/2017/cost-to-own/ .) There's a jump in costs at the 5th year, I'm thinking because it assumes 15,000 miles per year, which means the the limited warranty and powertrain warranty have both run out by the 60,000 miles reached the 4th year. Did you pay for your Volt in cash or did you finance? Was it new? What model year is it? How long do you plan to keep it? How often do you drive LA to San Francisco vs. your total mileage? How typical is your cost compared to others with the same model car? All of these affect your true cost of driving beyond simple fuel costs. Look, I totally get how you might prefer driving one of your cars to go to LA. But if you are going to justify it based on cost rather than personal preference you need to include the full cost, which is more complicated than just the price of fuel.