4 ms·

I'm from Europe originally, and visit often. And now in California. You could make Highspeed rail FREE and I'm not sure I would take it. I might. Maybe. As so

I'm from Europe originally, and visit often. And now in California. You could make Highspeed rail FREE and I'm not sure I would take it. I might. Maybe. As soon as it costs what gas costs to get to LA from SF ($100 round trip max, so usually $50-33 a person), there is NOOOO way I am ever taking it. Heck, I still need a way to get around once I get there.. so how would the train ever really work for anyone? Now I'm renting a car or taking Uber? Why wouldn't I just take my own car I like. And take more items without lugging them on a train. Without traveling to the train. Without paying parking at the station. Who is this train for?

corethree 3y ago
Why would you not take it when it's free? Makes zero sense.
- talldatethrow 3y ago
  Because it's a way worse experience than taking my own car. Maybe if they paid me I'd take it. If they paid enough.
  - ryukafalz 3y ago
    As someone living in the Northeast and having often made train trips of similar length (Philadelphia -> Boston), I don't see how. If I'm driving and need to stop to use the bathroom, eat something, or so on I'm setting myself back time-wise. Plus I have to stay sitting down the whole time and have to stay focused on the road for hours. If I take the train, I can get up, stretch my legs, grab some food, and I'll still get there at exactly the same time I would have otherwise. I can watch a movie on the way, or pull out my laptop to work on a side project if I want, or play some video games. I'll take the train over driving any day.
    - talldatethrow 3y ago
      I suppose all this hinges on if you want to have a car when you get to the destination. If not, then sure take the train if flying doesn't work. But I usually want to have a car. So I'll be driving until it really doesn't make sense for me. Most people I know spend crazy money for a car, if you compare to how little they could spend. Thus it seems many people are ok shelling out thousands of dollars a year for a cooler or more comfortable car. I have a feeling if high speed rail costs the same as taking their car, they are for sure going to take their car.
      - bluGill 3y ago
        In short we need better local transit
- toyg 3y ago
  Cost is not the only factor. For certain social classes, public transport is seen as fundamentally shameful or dangerous, something better left to poor people.
  - talldatethrow 3y ago
    I mentioned that I'm from Europe. Where trains are not seen at all like this. I use trains in Europe often, as it's a better experience than driving. In America, the driving experience is just fine outside of rush hour traffic in major metro areas. So what is this train saving me from?
    - dwb 3y ago
      I don't agree with you in the main part, but I do see where you're coming from. I'm from Europe, use trains often, and have also driven a fair few trips in the USA. Rush hour Bay Area was about as hellish as I expected (though merely tedious, rather than scary), but other than that it was very pleasant driving. I'd still rather take public transport if it was even two thirds the level of a decent European country – and while that's a fairly big request from where the USA is right now, we are talking about the biggest economy in the world.
- cjbgkagh 3y ago
  You often need a car at your destination and renting can be an expensive pain. There is also the issue of feeling unsafe on public transport.
- _ea1k 3y ago
  You still have to get around when you get to the destination. For a lot of places, that will mean renting a car. Even free can be more expensive than driving.
eesmith 3y ago
You left out depreciation, maintenance, and insurance. AAA gives ownership costs at about 75 cents/mile. https://exchange.aaa.com/automotive/aaas-your-driving-costs/ https://exchange.aaa.com/automotive/aaas-your-driving-costs/ With some 383 miles between San Francisco and Los Angeles that's $287 one-way or $575 round-trip. You'll need to add parking fees on top of that. For some people it's totally worth it to bring their own car. That's also why some people drive over flying. But there are also many people who would gladly take a free high-speed train service between those cities, just like there are many who currently fly. For that matter, I've flown into San Francisco for work and not needed a personal vehicle at all.
- talldatethrow 3y ago
  Do you really think that when a Honda Civic reaches 200k miles, $150k were spent on it? And that includes overall age depreciation which I wouldn't count, because most people that consider taking high speed rail would have a car anyway that's already depreciating.
  - eesmith 3y ago
    Saying that something is an average cost does not mean everything costs that much. For example, at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38234972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38234972 you said you have a 2001 Chevy Silverado short bed regular cab 4x4 truck. That's going to have higher fuel costs than a Honda Civic. Even if you leave out depreciation - and low-mileage vehicles have a higher resale value than high-mileage ones so I don't think you can do that - you've still got to include maintenance and insurance, both of which depend on miles traveled. Most people don't run their cars up to 200K. I certainly haven't, and have no idea what work needs to be done to get it there. For a used 2018 Honda Civic LX 4D with MSRP $20,700.00 driven 10K/year, AAA's online calculator, available from that page, estimates: Total Driving Cost Per Year $9,050.20 Per Mile $0.91 5-year Total $45,251.00 Costs Breakdown Cost per year 5-year Total Fuel $1,649.60 $8,248.00 MaintRepair $2,212.20 $11,061.00 Depreciation $2,115.60 $10,578.00 Insurance $1,890.00 $9,450.00 Fees & Taxes $546.20 $2,731.00 Finance Charges $636.60 $3,183.00 At 200K, that's 20 years, or well over $150K; closer to $200K. You can also see how they estimate MaintRepair will cost more than fuel, highlighting how fuel cost isn't the only important thing to think about.
pfranz 3y ago
I have the opposite problem. I'll drive from LA to SF for a conference or to visit friends and I have no place to ditch a car I don't need. Finding parking is miserable and hotels will charge $50-70/night. Heck, I saw a post last night about getting dropped off at LAX. It was taking hours to get close to the airport so they got out of their car and walked the last mile or two to the airport with their luggage. I just can't imagine the scale of what would need to change to accommodate cars. If out of pocket cost and having your car are the two things you value, do you never plan on flying? The out of pocket cost is often comparable and even with security, it's faster. It's also nice to be able to not have to focus on the road for hours.
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  It was taking hours to get close to the airport so they got out of their car and walked the last mile or two to the airport with their luggage. This is ridiculous. Why didn't they drop their friend at the nearest Metro Line C (Green Line)? There is an airport shuttle from Aviation/LAX station.
  - jazzyjackson 3y ago
    I've been in a similar situation in chicago. when traffic is at a standstill and there's no way to uturn. you're just stuck.
kevincox 3y ago
If I am taking a 6h car ride $100 in price isn't a major concern for me. I would pay twice that to be able to sit on my laptop playing a video game, reading a book or just browsing hacker news rather than being forced to stay focused on the road for the whole trip. Sitting on a train with no worries is way nicer than driving, especially if it is faster to boot (which isn't currently the case in the US but is for many more developed rail networks.)

corethree 3y ago

Why would you not take it when it's free? Makes zero sense.

talldatethrow 3y ago
Because it's a way worse experience than taking my own car. Maybe if they paid me I'd take it. If they paid enough.
- ryukafalz 3y ago
  As someone living in the Northeast and having often made train trips of similar length (Philadelphia -> Boston), I don't see how. If I'm driving and need to stop to use the bathroom, eat something, or so on I'm setting myself back time-wise. Plus I have to stay sitting down the whole time and have to stay focused on the road for hours. If I take the train, I can get up, stretch my legs, grab some food, and I'll still get there at exactly the same time I would have otherwise. I can watch a movie on the way, or pull out my laptop to work on a side project if I want, or play some video games. I'll take the train over driving any day.
  - talldatethrow 3y ago
    I suppose all this hinges on if you want to have a car when you get to the destination. If not, then sure take the train if flying doesn't work. But I usually want to have a car. So I'll be driving until it really doesn't make sense for me. Most people I know spend crazy money for a car, if you compare to how little they could spend. Thus it seems many people are ok shelling out thousands of dollars a year for a cooler or more comfortable car. I have a feeling if high speed rail costs the same as taking their car, they are for sure going to take their car.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      In short we need better local transit
toyg 3y ago
Cost is not the only factor. For certain social classes, public transport is seen as fundamentally shameful or dangerous, something better left to poor people.
- talldatethrow 3y ago
  I mentioned that I'm from Europe. Where trains are not seen at all like this. I use trains in Europe often, as it's a better experience than driving. In America, the driving experience is just fine outside of rush hour traffic in major metro areas. So what is this train saving me from?
  - dwb 3y ago
    I don't agree with you in the main part, but I do see where you're coming from. I'm from Europe, use trains often, and have also driven a fair few trips in the USA. Rush hour Bay Area was about as hellish as I expected (though merely tedious, rather than scary), but other than that it was very pleasant driving. I'd still rather take public transport if it was even two thirds the level of a decent European country – and while that's a fairly big request from where the USA is right now, we are talking about the biggest economy in the world.
cjbgkagh 3y ago
You often need a car at your destination and renting can be an expensive pain. There is also the issue of feeling unsafe on public transport.
_ea1k 3y ago
You still have to get around when you get to the destination. For a lot of places, that will mean renting a car. Even free can be more expensive than driving.

eesmith 3y ago

You left out depreciation, maintenance, and insurance. AAA gives ownership costs at about 75 cents/mile. https://exchange.aaa.com/automotive/aaas-your-driving-costs/ https://exchange.aaa.com/automotive/aaas-your-driving-costs/ With some 383 miles between San Francisco and Los Angeles that's $287 one-way or $575 round-trip. You'll need to add parking fees on top of that. For some people it's totally worth it to bring their own car. That's also why some people drive over flying. But there are also many people who would gladly take a free high-speed train service between those cities, just like there are many who currently fly. For that matter, I've flown into San Francisco for work and not needed a personal vehicle at all.

talldatethrow 3y ago
Do you really think that when a Honda Civic reaches 200k miles, $150k were spent on it? And that includes overall age depreciation which I wouldn't count, because most people that consider taking high speed rail would have a car anyway that's already depreciating.
- eesmith 3y ago
  Saying that something is an average cost does not mean everything costs that much. For example, at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38234972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38234972 you said you have a 2001 Chevy Silverado short bed regular cab 4x4 truck. That's going to have higher fuel costs than a Honda Civic. Even if you leave out depreciation - and low-mileage vehicles have a higher resale value than high-mileage ones so I don't think you can do that - you've still got to include maintenance and insurance, both of which depend on miles traveled. Most people don't run their cars up to 200K. I certainly haven't, and have no idea what work needs to be done to get it there. For a used 2018 Honda Civic LX 4D with MSRP $20,700.00 driven 10K/year, AAA's online calculator, available from that page, estimates: Total Driving Cost Per Year $9,050.20 Per Mile $0.91 5-year Total $45,251.00 Costs Breakdown Cost per year 5-year Total Fuel $1,649.60 $8,248.00 MaintRepair $2,212.20 $11,061.00 Depreciation $2,115.60 $10,578.00 Insurance $1,890.00 $9,450.00 Fees & Taxes $546.20 $2,731.00 Finance Charges $636.60 $3,183.00 At 200K, that's 20 years, or well over $150K; closer to $200K. You can also see how they estimate MaintRepair will cost more than fuel, highlighting how fuel cost isn't the only important thing to think about.

pfranz 3y ago

I have the opposite problem. I'll drive from LA to SF for a conference or to visit friends and I have no place to ditch a car I don't need. Finding parking is miserable and hotels will charge $50-70/night. Heck, I saw a post last night about getting dropped off at LAX. It was taking hours to get close to the airport so they got out of their car and walked the last mile or two to the airport with their luggage. I just can't imagine the scale of what would need to change to accommodate cars. If out of pocket cost and having your car are the two things you value, do you never plan on flying? The out of pocket cost is often comparable and even with security, it's faster. It's also nice to be able to not have to focus on the road for hours.

throwaway2037 3y ago
It was taking hours to get close to the airport so they got out of their car and walked the last mile or two to the airport with their luggage. This is ridiculous. Why didn't they drop their friend at the nearest Metro Line C (Green Line)? There is an airport shuttle from Aviation/LAX station.
- jazzyjackson 3y ago
  I've been in a similar situation in chicago. when traffic is at a standstill and there's no way to uturn. you're just stuck.

kevincox 3y ago

If I am taking a 6h car ride $100 in price isn't a major concern for me. I would pay twice that to be able to sit on my laptop playing a video game, reading a book or just browsing hacker news rather than being forced to stay focused on the road for the whole trip. Sitting on a train with no worries is way nicer than driving, especially if it is faster to boot (which isn't currently the case in the US but is for many more developed rail networks.)