9 ms·

There is technology for fast rapid mass transit: high-speed rail. Technology was never the issue here. Political will to fund, approve right-of-way, and build i

There is technology for fast rapid mass transit: high-speed rail. Technology was never the issue here. Political will to fund, approve right-of-way, and build it was always the problem, and Musk never even tried to address that part.

systems_glitch 3y ago
When folks suggest a new "changes everything" way to go fast, always remember that we used to run NY to Chicago at 120 MPH on steam power and bolted rails.
- ghaff 3y ago
  You're basically crossing a continental divide on that route and the time is similar to what it was a 100 years ago--which is about 10x what flying takes. (And costs a lot more today than flying.)
- tomatotomato37 3y ago
  I mean, we can now do that run at Mach 0.9 in 400 ton aluminum behemoths for the price of a nice dinner, so you know, things have changed
  - systems_glitch 3y ago
    Your nice dinner and my nice dinner must be pretty different :P I was of course speaking to rail travel, which yeah, is not much cheaper anymore, and far less time efficient.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Maybe someone should just buy up some lines and run steam at 120 MPH again. If it burned natural gas it probably wouldn’t even be that polluting and it would rock hard.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - jazzyjackson 3y ago
    there's a research institute in minnesota that is improving the efficiency of steam engines and manufacturing wood "biocoal" (charcoal) for fuel. https://csrail.org/ https://csrail.org/
    - systems_glitch 3y ago
      This is the cyberpunk dystopian future I signed up for :P
    - Qwertious 3y ago
      That link only works as http for me, not https. Interesting project though.
      - systems_glitch 3y ago
        Huh, HTTPS works at home and work for me.
ghaff 3y ago
In a country with long distances, a well-developed interstate highway system, and a well-developed air transport system. There is a decent rail system in the Northeast and between some other city pairs. But there isn't and shouldn't be the political will to develop rail transport options that don't outcompete those other options especially with electric/autonomous driving becoming an increasing option over the coming decades.
- jgeada 3y ago
  I live in the Northeast, what "decent rail system" are you talking about? Acela takes 3h44m from Boston to New York. Not much faster than the scheduled buses (4h15m) and comparable to driving the distance in your own car (3h55m if you stick to the speed limits)
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I hate driving into Manhattan. I'd much rather take rail relative to the alternatives even if it takes longer and maybe costs more (especially leaving aside parking). And many others do as well even if it would be faster to drive. And generally Manhattan is pretty walkable once you're there.
    - jgeada 3y ago
      I agree with you; but that is a low bar for qualifying Acela as a decent system.
    - midasuni 3y ago
      Boston to NY is 215m, it should take at most 90 minutes by modern train, 2 hours by century old lines. York to London is 215m and 2 hours, along a line that’s nearly 200 years old. Paris ti Lyon is 290 miles and takes 2 hours on a 40 year old track.
      - yuppie_scum 3y ago
        If we could just get rid of that pesky Connecticut in the way
wahern 3y ago
Hyperloop would have been built on pylons, theoretically mitigating the impact of a line cutting across farms or cities, which in the case of CAHSR has caused immeasurable political problems. I suspect the actual technology within the tube was never Musk's initial concern. Similar to his other industrial endeavors, I think the calculus with Hyperloop had more to do with the economics of being able to manufacture pylons and tube segments offsite for quick assembly onsite, leveraging factory production and avoiding as much as possible site-specific costs such as land grading. And presumably he had in mind repurposing SpaceX technology for welding rocket bodies. Given a cost-effective way to build and put these tubes into place, and some ballpark figures on their characteristics--e.g. how much of a pressure difference they could reliably keep without inflating production costs--figuring out how to actually use them was just an engineering problem, which he then took a first crack at to satisfy himself the overall concept might be feasible.
- cjbgkagh 3y ago
  It’s a very expensive and very fragile piece of infrastructure that would be hard to maintain in the best of circumstances. It would be easily sabotaged by those seeking to do harm which would make it even more egregiously expensive to defend.
- stephen_g 3y ago
  High speed rail is often built along viaducts too - and it's expensive. There's no way it's cheaper to build a vacuum chamber on pylons than some rails...

systems_glitch 3y ago

When folks suggest a new "changes everything" way to go fast, always remember that we used to run NY to Chicago at 120 MPH on steam power and bolted rails.

ghaff 3y ago
You're basically crossing a continental divide on that route and the time is similar to what it was a 100 years ago--which is about 10x what flying takes. (And costs a lot more today than flying.)
tomatotomato37 3y ago
I mean, we can now do that run at Mach 0.9 in 400 ton aluminum behemoths for the price of a nice dinner, so you know, things have changed
- systems_glitch 3y ago
  Your nice dinner and my nice dinner must be pretty different :P I was of course speaking to rail travel, which yeah, is not much cheaper anymore, and far less time efficient.
bombcar 3y ago
Maybe someone should just buy up some lines and run steam at 120 MPH again. If it burned natural gas it probably wouldn’t even be that polluting and it would rock hard.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- jazzyjackson 3y ago
  there's a research institute in minnesota that is improving the efficiency of steam engines and manufacturing wood "biocoal" (charcoal) for fuel. https://csrail.org/ https://csrail.org/
  - systems_glitch 3y ago
    This is the cyberpunk dystopian future I signed up for :P
  - Qwertious 3y ago
    That link only works as http for me, not https. Interesting project though.
    - systems_glitch 3y ago
      Huh, HTTPS works at home and work for me.

ghaff 3y ago

In a country with long distances, a well-developed interstate highway system, and a well-developed air transport system. There is a decent rail system in the Northeast and between some other city pairs. But there isn't and shouldn't be the political will to develop rail transport options that don't outcompete those other options especially with electric/autonomous driving becoming an increasing option over the coming decades.

jgeada 3y ago
I live in the Northeast, what "decent rail system" are you talking about? Acela takes 3h44m from Boston to New York. Not much faster than the scheduled buses (4h15m) and comparable to driving the distance in your own car (3h55m if you stick to the speed limits)
- ghaff 3y ago
  I hate driving into Manhattan. I'd much rather take rail relative to the alternatives even if it takes longer and maybe costs more (especially leaving aside parking). And many others do as well even if it would be faster to drive. And generally Manhattan is pretty walkable once you're there.
  - jgeada 3y ago
    I agree with you; but that is a low bar for qualifying Acela as a decent system.
  - midasuni 3y ago
    Boston to NY is 215m, it should take at most 90 minutes by modern train, 2 hours by century old lines. York to London is 215m and 2 hours, along a line that’s nearly 200 years old. Paris ti Lyon is 290 miles and takes 2 hours on a 40 year old track.
    - yuppie_scum 3y ago
      If we could just get rid of that pesky Connecticut in the way

wahern 3y ago

Hyperloop would have been built on pylons, theoretically mitigating the impact of a line cutting across farms or cities, which in the case of CAHSR has caused immeasurable political problems. I suspect the actual technology within the tube was never Musk's initial concern. Similar to his other industrial endeavors, I think the calculus with Hyperloop had more to do with the economics of being able to manufacture pylons and tube segments offsite for quick assembly onsite, leveraging factory production and avoiding as much as possible site-specific costs such as land grading. And presumably he had in mind repurposing SpaceX technology for welding rocket bodies. Given a cost-effective way to build and put these tubes into place, and some ballpark figures on their characteristics--e.g. how much of a pressure difference they could reliably keep without inflating production costs--figuring out how to actually use them was just an engineering problem, which he then took a first crack at to satisfy himself the overall concept might be feasible.

cjbgkagh 3y ago
It’s a very expensive and very fragile piece of infrastructure that would be hard to maintain in the best of circumstances. It would be easily sabotaged by those seeking to do harm which would make it even more egregiously expensive to defend.
stephen_g 3y ago
High speed rail is often built along viaducts too - and it's expensive. There's no way it's cheaper to build a vacuum chamber on pylons than some rails...