5 ms·

It’s apple’s own private system and infrastructure and they’re within their rights to control content delivered using that system. It’s not free for them to ope

It’s apple’s own private system and infrastructure and they’re within their rights to control content delivered using that system. It’s not free for them to operate. I have seen lots of comments like “well we need some kind of solution to this problem, whether it’s Apple launching an android app or a 3rd party”, and to be honest with you, I don’t even understand the problem. Maybe it’s cause I’m not from the US and can’t wrap my head around the social implications of message bubble hues?

sbrother 3y ago
It's not about the button color, other than the fact that a green bubble means your group message is degraded and a bunch of expected functionality stops existing. It's hard not to feel some annoyance if someone is added to a group and that causes the experience to be degraded for everyone else. I use Whatsapp for all my European friends, but getting Americans to adopt a different messaging platform is as unlikely as getting the Dutch to start using iMessage... So we're left with this situation, and it will continue until Apple/Google adopt RCS and cross-platform messaging becomes as seamless an experience as iMessage.
- FridgeSeal 3y ago
  > that a green bubble means your group message is degraded and a bunch of expected functionality stops existing …because the functionality is a paid product feature that exists on their hardware and software? Because it’s a…product feature??
  - sanex 3y ago
    But they purposely make the green bubble messages worse than they need to be. Videos get sent with a lower than necessary resolution.
    - FridgeSeal 3y ago
      Even when I used Android phones this would happen if you were misguided enough to send something over MMS lol. MMS was dated when I had a Motorola flip phone in high school, I’m not surprised it doesn’t handle 4K video lol.
      - sanex 3y ago
        I don't expect 4k but I would expect that when my wife sends a video green with mms and then used Whatsapp to share it with me and I use my android to send the same video to the same group they should be the same resolution but mine is _higher_ even though she took the video.
    - averageRoyalty 3y ago
      That's not accurate. The "green bubble" is SMS/MMS. They operate on a standard protocol of decades as a fallback, which absolutely has lower quality. You can blame your carrier for that. It wasn't that long ago that MMS too large simply failed, or lived in limbo. I'm not a big fan of low res either, but it's absolutely an improvement and beyond what they need to do.
    - Grustaf 3y ago
      That is simply objectively false. They can’t make the experience any better than it is. In a mixed group, they have to resort to the greatest common denominator which is SMS/MSM. They literally can’t do anything else.
      - unstatusthequo 3y ago
        Thank you for bringing this up again. The green bubblers who hitch about this fail to understand the difference between SMS, MMS, and better alternative. SMS and MMS are legacy “compatibility modes” in effect. Apple users happily enter the ecosystem to get away from legacy native messaging with SMS and MMS. It’s not the iPhone that “downgrades” anything, is that the default IS SHITTY, and iPhone upgrades the experience with a better protocol for Apple users. Don’t like your sadness with Android messaging? Switch. Frankly Apple should change the green bubble to brown, like crap, to really remind us of that legacy protocol use.
- Grustaf 3y ago
  So Americans hate the iMessage experience, but for some reason they refuse to use any of the numerous free alternatives? And that is Apple’s fault.
  - dqv 3y ago
    >Americans hate the iMessage experience No. They love the iMessage experience and iMessage inertia means that people without iPhones have to negotiate to get people to use something else. It's not even necessarily malicious or obvious, but it does happen. I was a little hurt when I realized I had been left out of certain group communications that were happening over iMessage when I didn't have an iPhone. >but for some reason they refuse to use any of the numerous free alternatives? I guess you could say that, but it's more that the inertia pulls them back to iMessage. I'd try to get people to use Signal/Telegram/Whatsapp/Messenger and at some point, they'd stop checking those apps and I'd have to send them a regular SMS. I was the only person they were checking the app for, so any lapse in our communication could result in forgetting to check the app (and even having it get automatically offloaded). It's also kind of like being the only vegan in a group of meat eaters. They just get invited to less dinner parties when people don't want to go somewhere that accommodates the vegan's diet. That creates a social rift even if it's not obvious.
    - xg15 3y ago
      > I'd try to get people to use Signal/Telegram/Whatsapp/Messenger and at some point, they'd stop checking those apps and I'd have to send them a regular SMS. Android guy here, so I may be out of the loop, but why do they have to check the apps at all? Shouldn't incoming messages from any app be shown as a push notification?
      - dqv 3y ago
        Push notification bankruptcy. I don't think a lot of people make checking every single app they have installed for the number a habit. I guess I could have policed them on where they put the app so it would be on page 1 or whatever it's called. But that Messages app? It's always going to be noticed since it's in the dock on every page.
saurik 3y ago
> It’s apple’s own private system and infrastructure and they’re within their rights to control content delivered using that system. I dunno: to me, Apple's "rights" stop at their doorstep, and if they don't want their service to be accessible to third-party clients, they are more than welcome to just not build such a service (as we honestly don't have any reason to provide legal defense for this one specific business model). We don't merely generally avoid extending rights over other people... usually we protect people from incursions into their rights by companies, whether by contractual or even by technological means: we have many laws and legal precedents designed to ensure interoperability, fair markets, and basic things such as "legal ownership" (see the right of first sale doctrine, for example). When Beeper sues Apple (which I do hope is their next step), it is not at all obvious that Apple will get to keep doing what they are doing here... and, even without Beeper's involvement, we're already seeing government regulators and politicians rightfully poking around at the situation, ready to provide some clarification to the rules in order to prevent this kind of thing.
- comradesmith 3y ago
  So Apple changed the locks on their front door, what’s the big deal?
- Grustaf 3y ago
  > and if they don't want their service to be accessible to third-party clients, they are more than welcome to just not build such a service That is exactly what they did. Or rather didn’t. They haven’t sued beeper, or retaliated in any way. They merely blocked beeper from hacking into their network. It is crazy to think that beeper could sue them for that.
  - unstatusthequo 3y ago
    Beeper can sue. Anyone can sue. But it’s whether the case has merit. Beeper’s would have none. Apple would counter sue, claim CFAA, and probably win without much effort at all. Their network, their rules, period. I am truly baffled how many people on HN think it’s cool for some third party to circumvent protections and use a network they don’t own or control. Remember peaking? Yeah. If this was YOUR network, would you be fine letting some third party, who’s not paying you, to use it as they wish and profit from that use? I really doubt it. If you say sure, that’s totally fine, I will challenge anyone here to prove it. Accordingly, please post your WiFi network credentials and GPS location here. We can use your network just like Beeper used Apple’s. Then sell access to others through our connection.
drngdds 3y ago
You're missing a couple important things: - It's not just bubble colors, those don't matter. What does matter is that image and especially video quality are absolute crap when texting between iPhone and Android, and almost all iPhone users in the US use iMessage instead of another platform like Whatsapp, so the experience tends to suck on both ends when texting between an iPhone and Android. It's all for vendor lock-in and it helps no one but Apple. Look up the "buy your mom an iPhone" bit. - Not everyone cares about the private property rights of a trillion dollar corporation. I definitely don't! I think Apple can get fucked, and I think it's cool if people find ways to exploit their APIs to do things Apple doesn't want them to do.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  > Not everyone cares about the private property rights of a trillion dollar corporation What's the threshold below which we should care?
  - MerManMaid 3y ago
    As a jumping off point, lets say any corporation with a valuation less than a trillion dollars (Which literally more than 99.9% of all corporations would fit under this umbrella)
- inferiorhuman 3y ago
  What does matter is that image and especially video quality are absolute crap when texting between iPhone and Android That's funny. Today I sent a full resolution picture from my iPhone to someone on another continent using an Android and it came through just fine. Oh. You mean MMS sucks? Why don't you complain to your carrier then? As of 2023 American carriers support attachments of roughly one megabyte. But the CTIA recommended supporting attachments of at least five megabytes… *checks notes*… back in 2013. Remind me why this is an Apple issue? I think Apple can get fucked Ah. So it's not about attachment quality it's about your dislike for Apple. Got it.
  - jvolkman 3y ago

sbrother 3y ago

It's not about the button color, other than the fact that a green bubble means your group message is degraded and a bunch of expected functionality stops existing. It's hard not to feel some annoyance if someone is added to a group and that causes the experience to be degraded for everyone else. I use Whatsapp for all my European friends, but getting Americans to adopt a different messaging platform is as unlikely as getting the Dutch to start using iMessage... So we're left with this situation, and it will continue until Apple/Google adopt RCS and cross-platform messaging becomes as seamless an experience as iMessage.

FridgeSeal 3y ago
> that a green bubble means your group message is degraded and a bunch of expected functionality stops existing …because the functionality is a paid product feature that exists on their hardware and software? Because it’s a…product feature??
- sanex 3y ago
  But they purposely make the green bubble messages worse than they need to be. Videos get sent with a lower than necessary resolution.
  - FridgeSeal 3y ago
    Even when I used Android phones this would happen if you were misguided enough to send something over MMS lol. MMS was dated when I had a Motorola flip phone in high school, I’m not surprised it doesn’t handle 4K video lol.
    - sanex 3y ago
      I don't expect 4k but I would expect that when my wife sends a video green with mms and then used Whatsapp to share it with me and I use my android to send the same video to the same group they should be the same resolution but mine is _higher_ even though she took the video.
  - averageRoyalty 3y ago
    That's not accurate. The "green bubble" is SMS/MMS. They operate on a standard protocol of decades as a fallback, which absolutely has lower quality. You can blame your carrier for that. It wasn't that long ago that MMS too large simply failed, or lived in limbo. I'm not a big fan of low res either, but it's absolutely an improvement and beyond what they need to do.
  - Grustaf 3y ago
    That is simply objectively false. They can’t make the experience any better than it is. In a mixed group, they have to resort to the greatest common denominator which is SMS/MSM. They literally can’t do anything else.
    - unstatusthequo 3y ago
      Thank you for bringing this up again. The green bubblers who hitch about this fail to understand the difference between SMS, MMS, and better alternative. SMS and MMS are legacy “compatibility modes” in effect. Apple users happily enter the ecosystem to get away from legacy native messaging with SMS and MMS. It’s not the iPhone that “downgrades” anything, is that the default IS SHITTY, and iPhone upgrades the experience with a better protocol for Apple users. Don’t like your sadness with Android messaging? Switch. Frankly Apple should change the green bubble to brown, like crap, to really remind us of that legacy protocol use.
Grustaf 3y ago
So Americans hate the iMessage experience, but for some reason they refuse to use any of the numerous free alternatives? And that is Apple’s fault.
- dqv 3y ago
  >Americans hate the iMessage experience No. They love the iMessage experience and iMessage inertia means that people without iPhones have to negotiate to get people to use something else. It's not even necessarily malicious or obvious, but it does happen. I was a little hurt when I realized I had been left out of certain group communications that were happening over iMessage when I didn't have an iPhone. >but for some reason they refuse to use any of the numerous free alternatives? I guess you could say that, but it's more that the inertia pulls them back to iMessage. I'd try to get people to use Signal/Telegram/Whatsapp/Messenger and at some point, they'd stop checking those apps and I'd have to send them a regular SMS. I was the only person they were checking the app for, so any lapse in our communication could result in forgetting to check the app (and even having it get automatically offloaded). It's also kind of like being the only vegan in a group of meat eaters. They just get invited to less dinner parties when people don't want to go somewhere that accommodates the vegan's diet. That creates a social rift even if it's not obvious.
  - xg15 3y ago
    > I'd try to get people to use Signal/Telegram/Whatsapp/Messenger and at some point, they'd stop checking those apps and I'd have to send them a regular SMS. Android guy here, so I may be out of the loop, but why do they have to check the apps at all? Shouldn't incoming messages from any app be shown as a push notification?
    - dqv 3y ago
      Push notification bankruptcy. I don't think a lot of people make checking every single app they have installed for the number a habit. I guess I could have policed them on where they put the app so it would be on page 1 or whatever it's called. But that Messages app? It's always going to be noticed since it's in the dock on every page.

saurik 3y ago

> It’s apple’s own private system and infrastructure and they’re within their rights to control content delivered using that system. I dunno: to me, Apple's "rights" stop at their doorstep, and if they don't want their service to be accessible to third-party clients, they are more than welcome to just not build such a service (as we honestly don't have any reason to provide legal defense for this one specific business model). We don't merely generally avoid extending rights over other people... usually we protect people from incursions into their rights by companies, whether by contractual or even by technological means: we have many laws and legal precedents designed to ensure interoperability, fair markets, and basic things such as "legal ownership" (see the right of first sale doctrine, for example). When Beeper sues Apple (which I do hope is their next step), it is not at all obvious that Apple will get to keep doing what they are doing here... and, even without Beeper's involvement, we're already seeing government regulators and politicians rightfully poking around at the situation, ready to provide some clarification to the rules in order to prevent this kind of thing.

comradesmith 3y ago
So Apple changed the locks on their front door, what’s the big deal?
Grustaf 3y ago
> and if they don't want their service to be accessible to third-party clients, they are more than welcome to just not build such a service That is exactly what they did. Or rather didn’t. They haven’t sued beeper, or retaliated in any way. They merely blocked beeper from hacking into their network. It is crazy to think that beeper could sue them for that.
- unstatusthequo 3y ago
  Beeper can sue. Anyone can sue. But it’s whether the case has merit. Beeper’s would have none. Apple would counter sue, claim CFAA, and probably win without much effort at all. Their network, their rules, period. I am truly baffled how many people on HN think it’s cool for some third party to circumvent protections and use a network they don’t own or control. Remember peaking? Yeah. If this was YOUR network, would you be fine letting some third party, who’s not paying you, to use it as they wish and profit from that use? I really doubt it. If you say sure, that’s totally fine, I will challenge anyone here to prove it. Accordingly, please post your WiFi network credentials and GPS location here. We can use your network just like Beeper used Apple’s. Then sell access to others through our connection.

drngdds 3y ago

You're missing a couple important things: - It's not just bubble colors, those don't matter. What does matter is that image and especially video quality are absolute crap when texting between iPhone and Android, and almost all iPhone users in the US use iMessage instead of another platform like Whatsapp, so the experience tends to suck on both ends when texting between an iPhone and Android. It's all for vendor lock-in and it helps no one but Apple. Look up the "buy your mom an iPhone" bit. - Not everyone cares about the private property rights of a trillion dollar corporation. I definitely don't! I think Apple can get fucked, and I think it's cool if people find ways to exploit their APIs to do things Apple doesn't want them to do.

rootusrootus 3y ago
> Not everyone cares about the private property rights of a trillion dollar corporation What's the threshold below which we should care?
- MerManMaid 3y ago
  As a jumping off point, lets say any corporation with a valuation less than a trillion dollars (Which literally more than 99.9% of all corporations would fit under this umbrella)
inferiorhuman 3y ago
What does matter is that image and especially video quality are absolute crap when texting between iPhone and Android That's funny. Today I sent a full resolution picture from my iPhone to someone on another continent using an Android and it came through just fine. Oh. You mean MMS sucks? Why don't you complain to your carrier then? As of 2023 American carriers support attachments of roughly one megabyte. But the CTIA recommended supporting attachments of at least five megabytes… *checks notes*… back in 2013. Remind me why this is an Apple issue? I think Apple can get fucked Ah. So it's not about attachment quality it's about your dislike for Apple. Got it.
- jvolkman 3y ago