5 ms·

I like this, but I don't understand it. How you can end up with Number of days without work since 1979: 0 Isn't the reality more like the fact that you have to

by OzzyB 14y ago

I like this, but I don't understand it. How you can end up with Number of days without work since 1979: 0 Isn't the reality more like the fact that you have to constantly obtain new skills, thus making you only "hireable" part of the time? In 2001 you learn you don't have what folks are looking for so you go and "retrain", get a couple years solid experience[%] in that skill, and then have a decent run until 2009 when the whole thing rinses & repeats? To me, senarios like these, make the case for actually having a CS degree -- that way you have a chance of obtaining a "zero" in number of days without work since 1979. 1979 Recruiter: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how's your COBOL?" CS Graduate: "10." Recruiter: "Great! I have tons of work for you." 1983 Recruiter: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how's your data base?" CS Graduate: "4. But during my days at MIT, we did cover database theory quite intensely; I'm sure I could adapt to your needs very quickly" Recruiter: "Oh, MIT 'eh, I'm sure you could, when can you start?" ... and so on... [%] I know a solid programmer can pick up new skills pretty quickly, but recruiters have a funny way of always insisting on a certain number of years of experience in a particular skill, don't they... P.S. I don't have a CS a degree.

pmjordan 14y ago
I think the point is: don't go through recruiters to find work. Even if the company says "we only accept applications through recruiters" that can be short-circuited if you have an acquaintance who already works there.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  and if you don't?
  - jeffdavis 14y ago
    Go to (and preferably speak at) the same user groups and conferences that people from that company go to. Hack on the open source projects that the company uses internally. You will soon have friends in that company, and probably 10 others.
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      This is assuming that they are using open source projects internally and that you A. Know what they are using and B. That they care about who maintains them rather than treating them as a black box that does stuff for free (how most open source projects are used most of the time in practice). Also tech conferences seem to be a pretty expensive way (at least in terms of travel) for hoping to bump into someone.
      - babarock 14y ago
        At some point, if the company is not making efforts to reach out to better programmers (by actually looking up the name behind the open source project and showing a strongly present figure in tech conferences) then it's their loss, no? If a company only trust "recruiters" to select (or pre-screen) candidates for them, then this says a lot about their way of managing and interacting with "our" kind of programmers (by that I mean people who read HN, are enthused by cool innovative projects, write blogs, publish open source code, ...) If the company doesn't help you bypass the recruiter, maybe you should bypass them altogether?
      - jeffdavis 14y ago
        "This is assuming that they are using open source projects internally and that you A. Know what they are using and B. That they care about who maintains them rather than treating them as a black box that does stuff for free" Then turn it around and look for companies based on the open source products that they use. There are plenty of companies that are heavy users of open source software, and don't hide that fact. You might have to move or something, but that's life. "Also tech conferences seem to be a pretty expensive way" There are many cheap conferences, or free exhibit hall passes for early-bird registration (usually allows BoF sessions, as well, and maybe parties); and user groups are ordinarily free (maybe you chip in for dinner or something). There are conferences or user groups in many areas about something, and maybe you can just drive. Often, you can share a room with another attendee (ask on some mailing list related to the conference) to save on lodging. If you have developed something or have some kind of speaking experience, the conference may pay for some or all of the travel expenses, and may waive conference pass. There are even some open source projects that have money waiting for anyone who wants to bootstrap a user group in their town. And these things are not theory. I have done absolutely everything I have suggested to you here (except trying to bootstrap a local user group): get free conference exhibit pass, drive to conference, share room, get started contributing, get major patches accepted, and get jobs through community connections. And I still do it, and I see many people rising up through very similar means that had little in the way of marketable talents a while ago. Disclaimer: Nothing about this happens overnight. It takes a long time. There are no magical steps where I can say "do these things and you will get this". You have to look out for the opportunities on your own. Start attacking your own reasons why something can't be done, knocking them down one by one.
- ams6110 14y ago
  Depends on the company. Larger organizations will often have a mandate that EVERY hire go through proscribed HR processes and channels. MAYBE if you know a C level person you can get an exception.
  - byrneseyeview 14y ago
    Last time I got hired by a big organization (definitely not C-level), my interaction with HR was as follows: they called me up to say they were sending an offer letter, and asked if by the way I could fill out an application and send them a résumé, for their records.
    - pmjordan 14y ago
      That's probably an extreme case. Often, knowing someone who will vouch for you will get you straight to the stage of interviewing with a technical person. You still have to go through the motions for their process, but it's a pure formality.
  - acdha 14y ago
    HR process, yes, but there's a huge difference: most (not all but definitely 90+%) of recruiters are simply searching Google for buzzwords and forwarding you over to HR (for this, they expect large amounts of money - typically 6 months of your first year salary). HR usually filters again and ships it through to the actual group which is hiring. Having a friend on the inside avoids two potential filter failures without having to actually change the HR process - it's saving HR the cost and hassle of a recruiter and essentially assuring them that they're not going to get flack for wasting anyone's time if they forward your resume through to the actual hiring manager.

by OzzyB 14y ago

pmjordan 14y ago

I think the point is: don't go through recruiters to find work. Even if the company says "we only accept applications through recruiters" that can be short-circuited if you have an acquaintance who already works there.

jiggy2011 14y ago
and if you don't?
- jeffdavis 14y ago
  Go to (and preferably speak at) the same user groups and conferences that people from that company go to. Hack on the open source projects that the company uses internally. You will soon have friends in that company, and probably 10 others.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    This is assuming that they are using open source projects internally and that you A. Know what they are using and B. That they care about who maintains them rather than treating them as a black box that does stuff for free (how most open source projects are used most of the time in practice). Also tech conferences seem to be a pretty expensive way (at least in terms of travel) for hoping to bump into someone.
    - babarock 14y ago
      At some point, if the company is not making efforts to reach out to better programmers (by actually looking up the name behind the open source project and showing a strongly present figure in tech conferences) then it's their loss, no? If a company only trust "recruiters" to select (or pre-screen) candidates for them, then this says a lot about their way of managing and interacting with "our" kind of programmers (by that I mean people who read HN, are enthused by cool innovative projects, write blogs, publish open source code, ...) If the company doesn't help you bypass the recruiter, maybe you should bypass them altogether?
    - jeffdavis 14y ago
      "This is assuming that they are using open source projects internally and that you A. Know what they are using and B. That they care about who maintains them rather than treating them as a black box that does stuff for free" Then turn it around and look for companies based on the open source products that they use. There are plenty of companies that are heavy users of open source software, and don't hide that fact. You might have to move or something, but that's life. "Also tech conferences seem to be a pretty expensive way" There are many cheap conferences, or free exhibit hall passes for early-bird registration (usually allows BoF sessions, as well, and maybe parties); and user groups are ordinarily free (maybe you chip in for dinner or something). There are conferences or user groups in many areas about something, and maybe you can just drive. Often, you can share a room with another attendee (ask on some mailing list related to the conference) to save on lodging. If you have developed something or have some kind of speaking experience, the conference may pay for some or all of the travel expenses, and may waive conference pass. There are even some open source projects that have money waiting for anyone who wants to bootstrap a user group in their town. And these things are not theory. I have done absolutely everything I have suggested to you here (except trying to bootstrap a local user group): get free conference exhibit pass, drive to conference, share room, get started contributing, get major patches accepted, and get jobs through community connections. And I still do it, and I see many people rising up through very similar means that had little in the way of marketable talents a while ago. Disclaimer: Nothing about this happens overnight. It takes a long time. There are no magical steps where I can say "do these things and you will get this". You have to look out for the opportunities on your own. Start attacking your own reasons why something can't be done, knocking them down one by one.
ams6110 14y ago
Depends on the company. Larger organizations will often have a mandate that EVERY hire go through proscribed HR processes and channels. MAYBE if you know a C level person you can get an exception.
- byrneseyeview 14y ago
  Last time I got hired by a big organization (definitely not C-level), my interaction with HR was as follows: they called me up to say they were sending an offer letter, and asked if by the way I could fill out an application and send them a résumé, for their records.
  - pmjordan 14y ago
    That's probably an extreme case. Often, knowing someone who will vouch for you will get you straight to the stage of interviewing with a technical person. You still have to go through the motions for their process, but it's a pure formality.
- acdha 14y ago
  HR process, yes, but there's a huge difference: most (not all but definitely 90+%) of recruiters are simply searching Google for buzzwords and forwarding you over to HR (for this, they expect large amounts of money - typically 6 months of your first year salary). HR usually filters again and ships it through to the actual group which is hiring. Having a friend on the inside avoids two potential filter failures without having to actually change the HR process - it's saving HR the cost and hassle of a recruiter and essentially assuring them that they're not going to get flack for wasting anyone's time if they forward your resume through to the actual hiring manager.