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I've asked similar questions before and am usually told that this is how Apple does things and it's what makes their users happy. It's in fact why they love an

I've asked similar questions before and am usually told that this is how Apple does things and it's what makes their users happy. It's in fact why they love and choose Apple. They trust Apple to make the right decisions, and this is in fact a big part of the value add of their products. This is much related to the walled garden approach. For example, ask about why sideloading should remain not an option at all, rather than something like Android where you can enable it if you want to but "Grandma" isn't going to accidentally do it. Apple users actively don't want that capability. It doesn't make sense to me, but that's because "I'm not their target market."

saiya-jin 3y ago
I have to agree with this sentiment, I read it here on HN 'power' users more than once. Although most Apple users have no clue about what we discuss here, the part about actively wanting it is simply not true en masse. Needless to say that's not for me and I will probably keep sporting Androids (in my case I am happy with Samsung's top ultra offerings) since I actually use those added features, ie saving 500 bucks on proper expensive variometer for paragliding and instead hooking it up via OTG cable with basic one with good sensor but without display, for 10% of the price... needless to say relevant app isn't on play store neither. And so on. But we certainly have choice on the market. I just wish Apple would properly focus on user security and shielding them from the worst of internet, and less on milking advertising, what I see so far didn't convince me it isn't just sophisticated marketing and not much more. You already pay premium on the device, its a proper spit in the face to be so visibly milked more and more, thats pure corporate greed. What I mean - my wife with iphone pops up browser, I pop up mine with firefox and ublock origin. Internet is utterly useless and horrible place on her phone, while completely fine on mine (plus I get youtube ads blocking as a bonus)
- neilparikh 3y ago
  > my wife with iphone pops up browser, I pop up mine with firefox and ublock origin. Internet is utterly useless and horrible place on her phone, while completely fine on mine (plus I get youtube ads blocking as a bonus) I recently set up NextDNS on my iPhone and browsing the web has become much more usable (previously, I would get webpage crashes!). Something to look into in addition to or instead of Wipr.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- turquoisevar 3y ago
  Do your wife a favor and get her Wipr[0]. Sure it’s $1.99 but we support indie developers here on HN don’t we? It’s a set it and forget it type of deal, no more ads in Safari. 0: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/wipr/id1030595027 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/wipr/id1030595027
  - saiya-jin 3y ago
    Thank you for this useful info
JoshTriplett 3y ago
> Apple users actively don't want that capability That's a self-fulfilling property, with cause and effect going as much in the other direction: people who want that capability don't become Apple users. If you want openness, you don't pick Apple.
wredue 3y ago
It’s not that I trust Apple, it’s that I trust Apple infinitely more than I trust the largest spy network on earth and existing without a smartphone today is difficult. If you need a smartphone, you can choose between a company that has some missteps, or a demonstrably evil spy network. I know who I am choosing.
- freedomben 3y ago
  Thanks, your position certainly makes sense to me regarding a Pixel phone with the stock software on it, but much less so when considering options like GrapheneOS or any of the Androids made by other non-Google companies (like OnePlus, etc). That's the point at which usually "user experience" or "I'm already in the Apple ecosystem" usually come to fore-front as the reason. I don't really trust of those big companies, which is where GrapheneOS really shines. Open source, lots of enhanced privacy controls, but also as much of the Google ecosystem as the user wants. If you maximally distrust everyone, you can roll with pure FOSS. If you're somewhere in the middle like most people, you can pick and choose the pieces that are worth it to you (Google's Pixel Camera app is a common one for example). Graphene OS is also trivial to install now thanks to the web installer, so pretty much anybody who can load a web page, plug in a USB cable, and follow the explicit instructions to unlock the bootloader (which is stuff like, "open settings" -> "click about", etc) can do it.
  - nucleardog 3y ago
    Where do I buy a GrapheneOS phone from a manufacturer that tests the entire package and releases updates? I’ve done the “just buy unlocked hardware and install this or that” in the past. My phone ended up taking up way more of my time than I’m willing to let it and my life has only gotten busier since.
bloppe 3y ago
This mentality is fascinating to me. In a sense, nobody owns an Apple device. It's more like renting: the landlord keeps a bunch of doors locked and has strict rules, but the place comes pre-furnished and includes millennial-grade amenities. I can see the appeal if you don't particularly care about owning a device, but it blows my mind that people become so dedicated to this way of living.
- averageRoyalty 3y ago
  It's unlikely that if you have a mobile phone, the landlord doesn't keep some doors locked. At minimum - even if you're running de-Googled Android - the baseband blob has high levels of access and you have no control over it. I'm not saying Apple isn't worse with this, but the illusion of phone ownership spreads a lot further.
  - madars 3y ago
    Baseband blobs are isolated with IOMMU (at least on GrapheneOS https://grapheneos.org/faq#baseband-isolation https://grapheneos.org/faq#baseband-isolation, but maybe that's also true for stock Pixels idk) and Google spends a lot of effort on baseband security: https://security.googleblog.com/2023/12/hardening-cellular-basebands-in-android.html https://security.googleblog.com/2023/12/hardening-cellular-b...
  - lxgr 3y ago
    Not to get too philosophical, but the entire concept of ownership per se is always a social contract that's being renegotiated continuously by society. Almost every country in the world has limits on the things you can own, to give just one example. I do see the value of having autonomy over the devices I conduct my digital life on (whether owned or rented, for that matter!), but I'm not sure if the concept of physical ownership is the right model here. How my personal data is being processed in other people's and the government's systems is just as relevant to me, and conversely, I'm fine with some opaque blobs of other people running on my hardware, as long as they're properly sandboxed (i.e. can't phone home freely or access any of my data that's none of their business), and I see the mutual benefit in them.
- 3y ago
staplers 3y ago
> this is how Apple does things and it's what makes their users happy I would be shocked if many of these "surveillance loopholes" aren't silently mandated by government agencies around the world.
lxgr 3y ago
You’re missing a probably sizable fraction of Apple users that don’t love this, but also don’t hate it enough to switch to something else for that reason alone. It’s very similar to political parties: I have yet to find one that I 100% align with in all things, yet I still vote.
- illiac786 3y ago
  I have long decided my strategy should be "pick the least worst". Much less frustrating if you look at it like an engineering optimisation task.
scyzoryk_xyz 3y ago
Oh I do want this functionality from them and I already actually do get it on MacOS, where grandma or my mom can use the App Store while I can still get an installer dmg with „this app was downloaded from internet do you trust it yadda yadda” warning. They’ret capable of doing it, they just don’t because AppStore makes a lot of nasty monopoly $.

saiya-jin 3y ago

I have to agree with this sentiment, I read it here on HN 'power' users more than once. Although most Apple users have no clue about what we discuss here, the part about actively wanting it is simply not true en masse. Needless to say that's not for me and I will probably keep sporting Androids (in my case I am happy with Samsung's top ultra offerings) since I actually use those added features, ie saving 500 bucks on proper expensive variometer for paragliding and instead hooking it up via OTG cable with basic one with good sensor but without display, for 10% of the price... needless to say relevant app isn't on play store neither. And so on. But we certainly have choice on the market. I just wish Apple would properly focus on user security and shielding them from the worst of internet, and less on milking advertising, what I see so far didn't convince me it isn't just sophisticated marketing and not much more. You already pay premium on the device, its a proper spit in the face to be so visibly milked more and more, thats pure corporate greed. What I mean - my wife with iphone pops up browser, I pop up mine with firefox and ublock origin. Internet is utterly useless and horrible place on her phone, while completely fine on mine (plus I get youtube ads blocking as a bonus)

neilparikh 3y ago
> my wife with iphone pops up browser, I pop up mine with firefox and ublock origin. Internet is utterly useless and horrible place on her phone, while completely fine on mine (plus I get youtube ads blocking as a bonus) I recently set up NextDNS on my iPhone and browsing the web has become much more usable (previously, I would get webpage crashes!). Something to look into in addition to or instead of Wipr.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
turquoisevar 3y ago
Do your wife a favor and get her Wipr[0]. Sure it’s $1.99 but we support indie developers here on HN don’t we? It’s a set it and forget it type of deal, no more ads in Safari. 0: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/wipr/id1030595027 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/wipr/id1030595027
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  Thank you for this useful info

JoshTriplett 3y ago

> Apple users actively don't want that capability That's a self-fulfilling property, with cause and effect going as much in the other direction: people who want that capability don't become Apple users. If you want openness, you don't pick Apple.

wredue 3y ago

It’s not that I trust Apple, it’s that I trust Apple infinitely more than I trust the largest spy network on earth and existing without a smartphone today is difficult. If you need a smartphone, you can choose between a company that has some missteps, or a demonstrably evil spy network. I know who I am choosing.

freedomben 3y ago
Thanks, your position certainly makes sense to me regarding a Pixel phone with the stock software on it, but much less so when considering options like GrapheneOS or any of the Androids made by other non-Google companies (like OnePlus, etc). That's the point at which usually "user experience" or "I'm already in the Apple ecosystem" usually come to fore-front as the reason. I don't really trust of those big companies, which is where GrapheneOS really shines. Open source, lots of enhanced privacy controls, but also as much of the Google ecosystem as the user wants. If you maximally distrust everyone, you can roll with pure FOSS. If you're somewhere in the middle like most people, you can pick and choose the pieces that are worth it to you (Google's Pixel Camera app is a common one for example). Graphene OS is also trivial to install now thanks to the web installer, so pretty much anybody who can load a web page, plug in a USB cable, and follow the explicit instructions to unlock the bootloader (which is stuff like, "open settings" -> "click about", etc) can do it.
- nucleardog 3y ago
  Where do I buy a GrapheneOS phone from a manufacturer that tests the entire package and releases updates? I’ve done the “just buy unlocked hardware and install this or that” in the past. My phone ended up taking up way more of my time than I’m willing to let it and my life has only gotten busier since.

bloppe 3y ago

This mentality is fascinating to me. In a sense, nobody owns an Apple device. It's more like renting: the landlord keeps a bunch of doors locked and has strict rules, but the place comes pre-furnished and includes millennial-grade amenities. I can see the appeal if you don't particularly care about owning a device, but it blows my mind that people become so dedicated to this way of living.

averageRoyalty 3y ago
It's unlikely that if you have a mobile phone, the landlord doesn't keep some doors locked. At minimum - even if you're running de-Googled Android - the baseband blob has high levels of access and you have no control over it. I'm not saying Apple isn't worse with this, but the illusion of phone ownership spreads a lot further.
- madars 3y ago
  Baseband blobs are isolated with IOMMU (at least on GrapheneOS https://grapheneos.org/faq#baseband-isolation https://grapheneos.org/faq#baseband-isolation, but maybe that's also true for stock Pixels idk) and Google spends a lot of effort on baseband security: https://security.googleblog.com/2023/12/hardening-cellular-basebands-in-android.html https://security.googleblog.com/2023/12/hardening-cellular-b...
- lxgr 3y ago
  Not to get too philosophical, but the entire concept of ownership per se is always a social contract that's being renegotiated continuously by society. Almost every country in the world has limits on the things you can own, to give just one example. I do see the value of having autonomy over the devices I conduct my digital life on (whether owned or rented, for that matter!), but I'm not sure if the concept of physical ownership is the right model here. How my personal data is being processed in other people's and the government's systems is just as relevant to me, and conversely, I'm fine with some opaque blobs of other people running on my hardware, as long as they're properly sandboxed (i.e. can't phone home freely or access any of my data that's none of their business), and I see the mutual benefit in them.
3y ago

staplers 3y ago

> this is how Apple does things and it's what makes their users happy I would be shocked if many of these "surveillance loopholes" aren't silently mandated by government agencies around the world.

lxgr 3y ago

You’re missing a probably sizable fraction of Apple users that don’t love this, but also don’t hate it enough to switch to something else for that reason alone. It’s very similar to political parties: I have yet to find one that I 100% align with in all things, yet I still vote.

illiac786 3y ago
I have long decided my strategy should be "pick the least worst". Much less frustrating if you look at it like an engineering optimisation task.

scyzoryk_xyz 3y ago

Oh I do want this functionality from them and I already actually do get it on MacOS, where grandma or my mom can use the App Store while I can still get an installer dmg with „this app was downloaded from internet do you trust it yadda yadda” warning. They’ret capable of doing it, they just don’t because AppStore makes a lot of nasty monopoly $.