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Forgive me for this but all self-driving cars do is act as the default to postpone and diffuse support for scalable and long term (also driverless) infrastructu

Forgive me for this but all self-driving cars do is act as the default to postpone and diffuse support for scalable and long term (also driverless) infrastructure with the false promise that self driving cars that will somehow solve all our transportation needs. This technology will increase the issues we have as a society around the use of a car based transportation system, as they are simultaneously expensive to maintain for low density environments while also conversely being almost impossible to maintain for high density environments. Car transport systems have no true limit on capacity so as the efficiency of the transportation system increases, so will demand and density. If everyone changes to another transportation system powered by Waymo and others, what’s to stop a large number of people moving to self-driving cars, increasing the number on the road, and causing grid lock again meaning we have to increase massively the amount of car-centric infrastructure all over again. Isn’t that what history has shown us will happen? Why do we keep supporting the most inefficient and expensive form of transport ever? Downvote if you must but it is a warranted and substitute argument and worth considering. Even if you think it’s not or not on the appropriate post of whatever criticisms you wish to levy (or just as likely work on self-driving systems). It’s always amazing to me how hard people will defend the status quo while calling themselves “technology innovators.”

oh_sigh 3y ago
Self driving cars are something that private companies can mostly do by themselves(beyond getting the okay from government to drive on public roads). Public mass transit infrastructure can't really be created by private companies. So, if you want mass transit, driverless cars really has nothing to do with it. Petition the government to get off their asses and do their job.
- happytiger 3y ago
  https://apnews.com/article/highspeed-rail-trains-brightline-florida-ac55cc43685666ae10ef3307512d5f33 https://apnews.com/article/highspeed-rail-trains-brightline-... Not sure that’s actually true. Japan’s has one of the most effective models and contrary to what most people believe is privately owned and operated. About 70 percent of Japan's railway network is operated by the Japan Railways (JR), while the rest is served by dozens of other private railway companies, especially in and around metropolitan areas. https://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/rail/high_speed/system-summaries/japan.pdf https://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/rail/high_speed/s... There is a lot more going on here with self-driving cars being pushed as the only answer that is deeply worthy of examination and discussion, but private companies have been extremely successful in the past before the oil and car companies started acting like cartels and systematically dismantled and destroyed public transportation across the western world. Keeping “public transit” as a government only activity while convincing the public that government is impotent at its implementation was the core strategy. https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-paper-trails-showing-car-companies-dismantling-American-public-transit-and-sidewalks-in-the-1950s https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-paper-trails-showing-car... https://medium.com/modern-city/how-the-united-states-ended-up-with-no-high-speed-rail-476c6209ce16 https://medium.com/modern-city/how-the-united-states-ended-u... Look, I drive. I just think we can do better and deserve to have better conversations about alternatives than what we’re having.
  - oh_sigh 3y ago
    Note that almost all Japanese railways started out as public sector projects, and were handed off to private sector to operate. Urban rail operations are within the wheelhouse of private organizations - but I don't think actually building them out is. At very best it could only be done with an extremely tight partnership between public and private sectors. With self driving cars, the private sector is taking more or less a unilateral decision to invest in them, something which cannot be done with pretty much any mass transit project.
    - happytiger 3y ago
      Yes I agree with you about Japan. But the reason it was made private is because it was financially failing, as is China’s hsr today. But I don’t agree with you on your other point. Look at the first link I offered. We have our first commercial high speed rail project going online in the US and they are already breaking ground on the second — LA to Vegas. We also have a long history of successful private transit systems. As has been written on hacker news before: > The public transit system used to be privately owned and operated. Then the cities took over and kicked out the private sector. Now we have terrible public transit. > Even the subways in NYC were built and operated by private companies (there were two, and they competed). Truth is we need both.
bryan_w 3y ago
You use the word "we" a lot. What exactly has your involvement been in all this?
- happytiger 3y ago
  Happy Holidays.
triceratops 3y ago
What's another name for a shared self-driving taxi? A bus. Self-driving vehicles paired with congestion taxes could usher in a golden age of mass transit. The congestion tax is the important bit though.
- happytiger 3y ago
  That’s possible. But taxation tends to be regressive, and the funds generated tend to be diverted for other purposes by downstream governments.

oh_sigh 3y ago

Self driving cars are something that private companies can mostly do by themselves(beyond getting the okay from government to drive on public roads). Public mass transit infrastructure can't really be created by private companies. So, if you want mass transit, driverless cars really has nothing to do with it. Petition the government to get off their asses and do their job.

happytiger 3y ago
https://apnews.com/article/highspeed-rail-trains-brightline-florida-ac55cc43685666ae10ef3307512d5f33 https://apnews.com/article/highspeed-rail-trains-brightline-... Not sure that’s actually true. Japan’s has one of the most effective models and contrary to what most people believe is privately owned and operated. About 70 percent of Japan's railway network is operated by the Japan Railways (JR), while the rest is served by dozens of other private railway companies, especially in and around metropolitan areas. https://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/rail/high_speed/system-summaries/japan.pdf https://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/rail/high_speed/s... There is a lot more going on here with self-driving cars being pushed as the only answer that is deeply worthy of examination and discussion, but private companies have been extremely successful in the past before the oil and car companies started acting like cartels and systematically dismantled and destroyed public transportation across the western world. Keeping “public transit” as a government only activity while convincing the public that government is impotent at its implementation was the core strategy. https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-paper-trails-showing-car-companies-dismantling-American-public-transit-and-sidewalks-in-the-1950s https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-paper-trails-showing-car... https://medium.com/modern-city/how-the-united-states-ended-up-with-no-high-speed-rail-476c6209ce16 https://medium.com/modern-city/how-the-united-states-ended-u... Look, I drive. I just think we can do better and deserve to have better conversations about alternatives than what we’re having.
- oh_sigh 3y ago
  Note that almost all Japanese railways started out as public sector projects, and were handed off to private sector to operate. Urban rail operations are within the wheelhouse of private organizations - but I don't think actually building them out is. At very best it could only be done with an extremely tight partnership between public and private sectors. With self driving cars, the private sector is taking more or less a unilateral decision to invest in them, something which cannot be done with pretty much any mass transit project.
  - happytiger 3y ago
    Yes I agree with you about Japan. But the reason it was made private is because it was financially failing, as is China’s hsr today. But I don’t agree with you on your other point. Look at the first link I offered. We have our first commercial high speed rail project going online in the US and they are already breaking ground on the second — LA to Vegas. We also have a long history of successful private transit systems. As has been written on hacker news before: > The public transit system used to be privately owned and operated. Then the cities took over and kicked out the private sector. Now we have terrible public transit. > Even the subways in NYC were built and operated by private companies (there were two, and they competed). Truth is we need both.

bryan_w 3y ago

You use the word "we" a lot. What exactly has your involvement been in all this?

happytiger 3y ago
Happy Holidays.

triceratops 3y ago

What's another name for a shared self-driving taxi? A bus. Self-driving vehicles paired with congestion taxes could usher in a golden age of mass transit. The congestion tax is the important bit though.

happytiger 3y ago
That’s possible. But taxation tends to be regressive, and the funds generated tend to be diverted for other purposes by downstream governments.