4 ms·

I have seen the 'self driving cars dont have to be perfect, just better than idiot hoomans' strawman used to deflect attention away from the fact that IMO self

I have seen the 'self driving cars dont have to be perfect, just better than idiot hoomans' strawman used to deflect attention away from the fact that IMO self driving cars aren't yet as good as the idiot hoomans. Because though they may have a stellar record, it's in the context of disengaging to let safety driver take over, in carefully controlled conditions etc. Basically companies using tricks to create the right stats for their splashy marketing. That said, if Waymo _can_ drive as safe as my the typical defensive human driver, without the need for any human driver to take over, then I would applaud it. Maybe it does, I only follow this news from a distance. We all know what happened with the Tesla hype but I'm more willing to give Waymo the benefit of the doubt. Waiting patiently for self driving cars to become available in my city.

flutas 3y ago
> Basically companies using tricks to create the right stats for their splashy marketing. Yep, for instance: If the car gets confused and can't proceed, what is the outcome? Well it's not a "disengagement" or recorded as anything publicly. It's just "the car contacting support for directions." Wanna see how this plays out? Here's Cruise, bragging about reaching 1 disengagement per 96,000 miles[0], sounds impressive right? Meanwhile, in reality Cruise cars needed remote assistance every 4-5 miles[1]. An even more fun fact? Cruise had at least 60 vehicles stall at once in 2022[2], but somehow they claim only "9 disengagements." [0]: https://www.eetimes.com/waymo-cruise-dominate-av-testing/ https://www.eetimes.com/waymo-cruise-dominate-av-testing/ [1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/06/cruise-confirms-robotaxis-rely-on-human-assistance-every-4-to-5-miles.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/06/cruise-confirms-robotaxis-re... [2]: https://jalopnik.com/cruise-server-crash-causes-self-driving-car-blockades-o-1849405795 https://jalopnik.com/cruise-server-crash-causes-self-driving...
- xnx 3y ago
  Looking for the truth in statistics is very tricky. Important to note that Cruise is extremely different from Waymo and shouldn't be used to represent self-driving as a whole.
  - flutas 3y ago
    > Important to note that Cruise is extremely different from Waymo and shouldn't be used to represent self-driving as a whole. Waymo has the same problem of stalling and contacting support[0], we just don't know the numbers. As an example, [0] is video of a Waymo stalling (starting at 0:14) for 50 seconds before even contacting rider support. Rider support then takes an additional 47 seconds to reroute before the car starts moving again. The entire time (1m, 37s) the Waymo is blocking the only lane through this area. [0]: https://youtu.be/wWZGZWuUx-Y?t=13 https://youtu.be/wWZGZWuUx-Y?t=13
shkkmo 3y ago
> it's in the context of disengaging to let safety driver take over, in carefully controlled conditions. There is no safety driver. This study is discussing the fully driverless level 4 autonomous vehicles that Waymo operates in California and Arizona. This particular study show that those vehicles had accident rates 3-9x lower than human drivers, even after controlling for the limitations on where they operate (such as not operating on highways).

flutas 3y ago

> Basically companies using tricks to create the right stats for their splashy marketing. Yep, for instance: If the car gets confused and can't proceed, what is the outcome? Well it's not a "disengagement" or recorded as anything publicly. It's just "the car contacting support for directions." Wanna see how this plays out? Here's Cruise, bragging about reaching 1 disengagement per 96,000 miles[0], sounds impressive right? Meanwhile, in reality Cruise cars needed remote assistance every 4-5 miles[1]. An even more fun fact? Cruise had at least 60 vehicles stall at once in 2022[2], but somehow they claim only "9 disengagements." [0]: https://www.eetimes.com/waymo-cruise-dominate-av-testing/ https://www.eetimes.com/waymo-cruise-dominate-av-testing/ [1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/06/cruise-confirms-robotaxis-rely-on-human-assistance-every-4-to-5-miles.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/06/cruise-confirms-robotaxis-re... [2]: https://jalopnik.com/cruise-server-crash-causes-self-driving-car-blockades-o-1849405795 https://jalopnik.com/cruise-server-crash-causes-self-driving...

xnx 3y ago
Looking for the truth in statistics is very tricky. Important to note that Cruise is extremely different from Waymo and shouldn't be used to represent self-driving as a whole.
- flutas 3y ago
  > Important to note that Cruise is extremely different from Waymo and shouldn't be used to represent self-driving as a whole. Waymo has the same problem of stalling and contacting support[0], we just don't know the numbers. As an example, [0] is video of a Waymo stalling (starting at 0:14) for 50 seconds before even contacting rider support. Rider support then takes an additional 47 seconds to reroute before the car starts moving again. The entire time (1m, 37s) the Waymo is blocking the only lane through this area. [0]: https://youtu.be/wWZGZWuUx-Y?t=13 https://youtu.be/wWZGZWuUx-Y?t=13

shkkmo 3y ago

> it's in the context of disengaging to let safety driver take over, in carefully controlled conditions. There is no safety driver. This study is discussing the fully driverless level 4 autonomous vehicles that Waymo operates in California and Arizona. This particular study show that those vehicles had accident rates 3-9x lower than human drivers, even after controlling for the limitations on where they operate (such as not operating on highways).