8 ms·

1979 Recruiter: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how's your COBOL?" edw519: "10." Recruiter: "Great! I have tons of work for you." 1983 Recruiter: "On a sc

by edw519 15y ago

1979 Recruiter: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how's your COBOL?" edw519: "10." Recruiter: "Great! I have tons of work for you." 1983 Recruiter: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how's your data base?" edw519: "4. But I'm a 10 in COBOL." Recruiter: "No one cares about COBOL. I need data base people." 1987 Recruiter: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how's your Microsoft?" edw519: "4. But I'm a 10 in data base." Recruiter: "No one cares about data base. I need Microsoft people." 1992 Recruiter: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how's your Oracle?" edw519: "4. But I'm a 10 in Microsoft." Recruiter: "No one cares about Microsoft. I need Oracle people." 1996 Recruiter: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how's your HTML & CSS?" edw519: "4. But I'm a 10 in Oracle." Recruiter: "No one cares about Oracle. I need web people." 2001 Recruiter: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how's your Javascript & PHP?" edw519: "4. But I'm a 10 in HTML & CSS." Recruiter: "No one cares about HTML & CSS. I need back-end people." 2009 Recruiter: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how's your Ruby & Python?" edw519: "4. But I'm a 10 in Javascript & PHP." Recruiter: "No one cares about Javascript & PHP. I need Ruby & Python people." Number of days without work since 1979: 0. Lighten up, guys. If you can build stuff, learn, and work well with others, you'll probably always be fine.

rdl 15y ago
If you can go from 4 to 10 in something new every few years, that's amazing in itself. (although maybe we're using different 1-10 scale here; mine is probably log and I'm probably and 8.x at my strongest skill, and 4-6 for secondary skills after some solid effort.
- ceejayoz 15y ago
  That's why I hate the 0-10 scale for skill level. Some folks consider a 10 to be the guy who invented the language/technology. Linus, DHH, etc. Almost no one is a 10 on that scale. Others consider a 10 to be "I'm an expert in any of the tasks you're going to be asking me to perform with this tech". That's the scale that's more important to me. Then, of course, you get the brand new grad who says they're an 8 in a language despite never making anything that's not a basic class project in it...
  - lukejduncan 15y ago
    From my limited experience the right answer is always 7. It's a BS question so yes there is a right answer. Here's why: When I see resumes, the only people who put 10s are recent college graduates. They put a 10 for Java and then don't know what a hashCode is. This demonstrates more about the question than about the candidate I've also interviewed at a few places, been asked the 0-10 question on a set of languages and been told that 5 "wasn't what they were looking for" and they wanted "10s only." This demonstrates more about the company than about the question. The right answer is 7. It says "I'm good, but not Linus Torvalds" and if anyone asks a follow just say "I'm never really sure what to say there." It doesn't matter if your answer means anything because the question doesn't
    - nostrademons 15y ago
      I recall a blog post where someone remarked that "7 is really a 3". Precisely because of Dunning-Kruger: people who don't know how big the field is just say 7 because it seems reasonably high and yet doesn't imply mastery. That'd imply that game-theoretically, the right answer is 8. ;-) Enough to tell the interviewer that you've gotten past 7, yet not so high to make them think that you think you know everything. (Personally, I've taken to saying "Judge for yourself" and listing my accomplishments. That's what they're really interested in, they're going to do it anyway, and this way I show enough confidence in my own abilities that I'm willing to let others judge them.)
    - rodly 15y ago
      "When I see resumes, the only people who put 10s are recent college graduates. They put a 10 for Java and then don't know what a hashCode is." Please tell me what colleges these graduates are coming from so I know never to hire/work with any of them, ever.
      - jiggy2011 15y ago
        I don't think that's a specific problem with the colleges themselves. It's just when you spend 3/4 years in that kind of bubble and you get getting good marks on all your assignments you are naturally going to think "I've mastered Java" based on evaluating the only evidence presented to you. Of course there is a difference between knowledge and aptitude here. Would a candidate who doesn't know what .hashCode() does but who after a 10 minute explanation says "yes, I understand now makes sense" be a bad hire? I program a lot of Java but I am unfamiliar with huge amounts of both the language and standard API (especially the parts dealing with 'enterprise' stuff and concurrency). This is mainly because I explicitly design my Java apps around a shared nothing/POJO-JPA configuration and I don't use RMI , Reflection or JMS. Does that mean I am a bad Java programmer?
- blacksmythe 15y ago
  >> If you can go from 4 to 10 in something new every few years, that's amazing ... If you follow edw519's posts (and I recommend that you do#), you will see he is an amazing guy whose life revolves around programming. #see http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=edw519 http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=edw519, free ebook, "The Best of edw519": http://edweissman.com/53640595 http://edweissman.com/53640595 Also well worth following: http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=pg http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=pg http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=patio11 http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=patio11, http://www.kalzumeus.com http://www.kalzumeus.com http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=tptacek http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=tptacek http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=cperciva http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=cperciva and many others...
OzzyB 15y ago
I like this, but I don't understand it. How you can end up with Number of days without work since 1979: 0 Isn't the reality more like the fact that you have to constantly obtain new skills, thus making you only "hireable" part of the time? In 2001 you learn you don't have what folks are looking for so you go and "retrain", get a couple years solid experience[%] in that skill, and then have a decent run until 2009 when the whole thing rinses & repeats? To me, senarios like these, make the case for actually having a CS degree -- that way you have a chance of obtaining a "zero" in number of days without work since 1979. 1979 Recruiter: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how's your COBOL?" CS Graduate: "10." Recruiter: "Great! I have tons of work for you." 1983 Recruiter: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how's your data base?" CS Graduate: "4. But during my days at MIT, we did cover database theory quite intensely; I'm sure I could adapt to your needs very quickly" Recruiter: "Oh, MIT 'eh, I'm sure you could, when can you start?" ... and so on... [%] I know a solid programmer can pick up new skills pretty quickly, but recruiters have a funny way of always insisting on a certain number of years of experience in a particular skill, don't they... P.S. I don't have a CS a degree.
- pmjordan 15y ago
  I think the point is: don't go through recruiters to find work. Even if the company says "we only accept applications through recruiters" that can be short-circuited if you have an acquaintance who already works there.
  - jiggy2011 15y ago
    and if you don't?
    - jeffdavis 15y ago
      Go to (and preferably speak at) the same user groups and conferences that people from that company go to. Hack on the open source projects that the company uses internally. You will soon have friends in that company, and probably 10 others.
adrianhoward 15y ago
Recruiter: "No one cares about COBOL. I need data base people." Need a better recruiter. People are still making really good money with COBOL :-)
petercooper 15y ago
edw519: "4. But I'm a 10 in Javascript & PHP." Hang in there, 2009 edw519! JavaScript is increasingly back again in 2012 ;-)
- borism 15y ago
  especially on the back-end
nirvana 15y ago
True story: Recruiter: "So you were writing Java code that talked to an Oracle Database, right?" Me: "Right" Her: "What version of Oracle was it?" Me: "8i I think" Her: "Sorry, we're looking for people with 9i experience." (9i had just come out.) Me: "Really? You know SQL[1] is a standard and I'm writing Java code anyway, we were using a ORM as well. I didn't even end up writing that much direct SQL code." Her: "Sorry, the client specifically said Oracle 9i -- I'm looking at it right now. They're not looking for Sequal experience." This is when I decided to always avoid recruiters if I possibly could. [1] I pronounced this "Ess Que Ell" but she responded "Sequel" which I think was the name of another database vendor at the time.
- zinkem 15y ago
  Both pronunciations (SQL/sequel) refer to the same thing, and both are correct. http://patorjk.com/blog/2012/01/26/pronouncing-sql-s-q-l-or-sequel/ http://patorjk.com/blog/2012/01/26/pronouncing-sql-s-q-l-or-...
  - chime 15y ago
    I think his point was that the recruiter did not know this.
  - jiggy2011 15y ago
    I just call it "sqwel" or "squeel" that way nobody is happy.
- kenkam 15y ago
  Interestingly, microsoft SQL server is pronounced sequel server: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3594718/how-do-you-pronounce-microsoft-sql-server http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3594718/how-do-you-pronou... I pronounce MySQL as My-ess-cue-el.
- flomo 15y ago
  I see some value in this type of thing. If someone can't bluff their way past a (non)technical recruiter, will they be able to handle a requirements meeting or communicate status to a PM? Some engineers really can only talk to other engineers. What's the worst thing that could happen if you fibbed "Oh yeah 9i, I've used that too."? You'd get an interview with the database guy who actually knows the difference.

by edw519 15y ago

rdl 15y ago

If you can go from 4 to 10 in something new every few years, that's amazing in itself. (although maybe we're using different 1-10 scale here; mine is probably log and I'm probably and 8.x at my strongest skill, and 4-6 for secondary skills after some solid effort.

ceejayoz 15y ago
That's why I hate the 0-10 scale for skill level. Some folks consider a 10 to be the guy who invented the language/technology. Linus, DHH, etc. Almost no one is a 10 on that scale. Others consider a 10 to be "I'm an expert in any of the tasks you're going to be asking me to perform with this tech". That's the scale that's more important to me. Then, of course, you get the brand new grad who says they're an 8 in a language despite never making anything that's not a basic class project in it...
- lukejduncan 15y ago
  From my limited experience the right answer is always 7. It's a BS question so yes there is a right answer. Here's why: When I see resumes, the only people who put 10s are recent college graduates. They put a 10 for Java and then don't know what a hashCode is. This demonstrates more about the question than about the candidate I've also interviewed at a few places, been asked the 0-10 question on a set of languages and been told that 5 "wasn't what they were looking for" and they wanted "10s only." This demonstrates more about the company than about the question. The right answer is 7. It says "I'm good, but not Linus Torvalds" and if anyone asks a follow just say "I'm never really sure what to say there." It doesn't matter if your answer means anything because the question doesn't
  - nostrademons 15y ago
    I recall a blog post where someone remarked that "7 is really a 3". Precisely because of Dunning-Kruger: people who don't know how big the field is just say 7 because it seems reasonably high and yet doesn't imply mastery. That'd imply that game-theoretically, the right answer is 8. ;-) Enough to tell the interviewer that you've gotten past 7, yet not so high to make them think that you think you know everything. (Personally, I've taken to saying "Judge for yourself" and listing my accomplishments. That's what they're really interested in, they're going to do it anyway, and this way I show enough confidence in my own abilities that I'm willing to let others judge them.)
  - rodly 15y ago
    "When I see resumes, the only people who put 10s are recent college graduates. They put a 10 for Java and then don't know what a hashCode is." Please tell me what colleges these graduates are coming from so I know never to hire/work with any of them, ever.
    - jiggy2011 15y ago
      I don't think that's a specific problem with the colleges themselves. It's just when you spend 3/4 years in that kind of bubble and you get getting good marks on all your assignments you are naturally going to think "I've mastered Java" based on evaluating the only evidence presented to you. Of course there is a difference between knowledge and aptitude here. Would a candidate who doesn't know what .hashCode() does but who after a 10 minute explanation says "yes, I understand now makes sense" be a bad hire? I program a lot of Java but I am unfamiliar with huge amounts of both the language and standard API (especially the parts dealing with 'enterprise' stuff and concurrency). This is mainly because I explicitly design my Java apps around a shared nothing/POJO-JPA configuration and I don't use RMI , Reflection or JMS. Does that mean I am a bad Java programmer?
blacksmythe 15y ago
>> If you can go from 4 to 10 in something new every few years, that's amazing ... If you follow edw519's posts (and I recommend that you do#), you will see he is an amazing guy whose life revolves around programming. #see http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=edw519 http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=edw519, free ebook, "The Best of edw519": http://edweissman.com/53640595 http://edweissman.com/53640595 Also well worth following: http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=pg http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=pg http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=patio11 http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=patio11, http://www.kalzumeus.com http://www.kalzumeus.com http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=tptacek http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=tptacek http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=cperciva http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=cperciva and many others...

OzzyB 15y ago

I like this, but I don't understand it. How you can end up with Number of days without work since 1979: 0 Isn't the reality more like the fact that you have to constantly obtain new skills, thus making you only "hireable" part of the time? In 2001 you learn you don't have what folks are looking for so you go and "retrain", get a couple years solid experience[%] in that skill, and then have a decent run until 2009 when the whole thing rinses & repeats? To me, senarios like these, make the case for actually having a CS degree -- that way you have a chance of obtaining a "zero" in number of days without work since 1979. 1979 Recruiter: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how's your COBOL?" CS Graduate: "10." Recruiter: "Great! I have tons of work for you." 1983 Recruiter: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how's your data base?" CS Graduate: "4. But during my days at MIT, we did cover database theory quite intensely; I'm sure I could adapt to your needs very quickly" Recruiter: "Oh, MIT 'eh, I'm sure you could, when can you start?" ... and so on... [%] I know a solid programmer can pick up new skills pretty quickly, but recruiters have a funny way of always insisting on a certain number of years of experience in a particular skill, don't they... P.S. I don't have a CS a degree.

pmjordan 15y ago
I think the point is: don't go through recruiters to find work. Even if the company says "we only accept applications through recruiters" that can be short-circuited if you have an acquaintance who already works there.
- jiggy2011 15y ago
  and if you don't?
  - jeffdavis 15y ago
    Go to (and preferably speak at) the same user groups and conferences that people from that company go to. Hack on the open source projects that the company uses internally. You will soon have friends in that company, and probably 10 others.

adrianhoward 15y ago

Recruiter: "No one cares about COBOL. I need data base people." Need a better recruiter. People are still making really good money with COBOL :-)

petercooper 15y ago

edw519: "4. But I'm a 10 in Javascript & PHP." Hang in there, 2009 edw519! JavaScript is increasingly back again in 2012 ;-)

borism 15y ago
especially on the back-end

nirvana 15y ago

True story: Recruiter: "So you were writing Java code that talked to an Oracle Database, right?" Me: "Right" Her: "What version of Oracle was it?" Me: "8i I think" Her: "Sorry, we're looking for people with 9i experience." (9i had just come out.) Me: "Really? You know SQL[1] is a standard and I'm writing Java code anyway, we were using a ORM as well. I didn't even end up writing that much direct SQL code." Her: "Sorry, the client specifically said Oracle 9i -- I'm looking at it right now. They're not looking for Sequal experience." This is when I decided to always avoid recruiters if I possibly could. [1] I pronounced this "Ess Que Ell" but she responded "Sequel" which I think was the name of another database vendor at the time.

zinkem 15y ago
Both pronunciations (SQL/sequel) refer to the same thing, and both are correct. http://patorjk.com/blog/2012/01/26/pronouncing-sql-s-q-l-or-sequel/ http://patorjk.com/blog/2012/01/26/pronouncing-sql-s-q-l-or-...
- chime 15y ago
  I think his point was that the recruiter did not know this.
- jiggy2011 15y ago
  I just call it "sqwel" or "squeel" that way nobody is happy.
kenkam 15y ago
Interestingly, microsoft SQL server is pronounced sequel server: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3594718/how-do-you-pronounce-microsoft-sql-server http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3594718/how-do-you-pronou... I pronounce MySQL as My-ess-cue-el.
flomo 15y ago
I see some value in this type of thing. If someone can't bluff their way past a (non)technical recruiter, will they be able to handle a requirements meeting or communicate status to a PM? Some engineers really can only talk to other engineers. What's the worst thing that could happen if you fibbed "Oh yeah 9i, I've used that too."? You'd get an interview with the database guy who actually knows the difference.