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The second paragraph regarding abortion is terrifying: > The revelation raises grave medical privacy concerns, particularly in a post-Dobbs era in which many s

The second paragraph regarding abortion is terrifying: > The revelation raises grave medical privacy concerns, particularly in a post-Dobbs era in which many states are working to criminalize reproductive health care. Even if people in states with restrictive laws cross state lines for care, pharmacists in massive chains, such as CVS, can access records across borders. I was “pro-life” from as long as I can remember thinking about the issue (I still recall the Bush v. Gore debates) until I voted last month in favor of making free access to abortion a constitutional right in Ohio. It initially took some coaxing from my wife, who helped me try to understand the issue from a woman’s perspective, and for a while I had doubts about whether I had done the right thing, but reading about far-right shenanigans (or potential shenanigans) makes me 100% confident I’m now on the correct side on abortion. Wherever power __can__ be abused, it __will__ be abused. I wish abortion was less common, and we should work on making it less common, but the last thing we need is ideologues and extremist politicians second-guessing healthcare professionals and harassing women in what is one of the most desperate times in their lives. ———————————————————————— Edit: reading some of the strident and confrontational comments from some of those with whom I actually agree on the issue, it’s clear that “the cause”, if you will, doesn’t always have effective advocates. I have a fairly thick skin, some I’m avoiding engaging in a similarly mean-spirited way, but extremists (on both sides) are their own worst enemy. In the same way that I was pushed away from being “pro-life”, in part by far-right extremists, I imagine the extremists on the far-left are also losing friends and alienating people.

ta988 3y ago
Thank you for all of us that this issue impacts and should be able to make their own medical choices.
PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
The problem is thinking there's a correct side. If you believe life begins at conception and that ending a life is murder, then naturally you're going to believe that abortion is murder and is therefore immoral. If you do NOT believe life begins at conception than naturally you're not going to believe it's murder and therefor not going to believe it's immoral. It's possible to disagree with someone's stance on abortion without thinking of it as correct or incorrect. --- edit: why is it people insist on arguing even when the entire point is that arguing about it isn't all that meaningful? The overarching point is to stop acting as if people are definitely right or wrong. stop arguing over semantics of words.
- epcoa 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - l33t7332273 3y ago
    > Almost no one believes that ending a life is murder Can you elaborate on that?
    - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
      while I do think the poster is a bit of a jackass, it's obvious they meant ending the life of a fetus and not ending the life of a person in general. We can take them for what they meant rather than what they said.
    - joelfried 3y ago
      Elaborating on that is the red herring. We shouldn't have to elaborate on that, it doesn't need to be the central argument here.
    - larkost 3y ago
      I think that the poster is implying that many of the same people who describe themselves as Pro-Life also support the death penalty, are huge supporters of having a huge U.S. military (much bigger than needed for territorial defense, so obviously it is going to be used for other things), and are often loudly pro-gun (the argument here is that a gun is offensive, not defensive, so anti-life). Squaring these positions with the description Pro-Life can be a little odd. While it is a little unfair to over-simplify this way, many Trump supporters are Pro-Life, and those same people seemed to enjoy and support his recent comments: "Very simply: If you rob a store, you can fully expect to be shot as you are leaving that store". You can make a position that the thieves he was talking about have given up their right to life in a way that a fetus can not, but I think there is also an argument that this view can not be squared with a Pro-Life designation. I find my own opinion somewhere in the middle, but closer to the latter.
      - 3y ago
legitster 3y ago
> who helped me try to understand the issue from a woman’s perspective Up until about 2020 men and women had more or less similar views on abortion. https://news.gallup.com/poll/245618/abortion-trends-gender.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/245618/abortion-trends-gender.a... Even still, women's reproductive rights in general are ironically one of the least gendered opinions.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
caskstrength 3y ago
Strange to read something like this on HN, but better late than never, I guess...
- ralmidani 3y ago
  Thanks! Being a hacker and/or entrepreneur, even loosely defined, doesn’t imply you’re a conformist. In fact, I think what makes HN one of the most desirable places to engage with on the internet is that it’s less of an echo chamber than most.
  - caskstrength 3y ago
    I'm not entirely convinced that being "pro life" is some dangerous to have, heroic, non-conformist position to take for Ohio resident, but whatever...
    - ralmidani 3y ago
      I thought it was pretty clear from the context that I meant conformist in regard to HN, not Ohio. I also don’t think of myself as a hero by any means.
      - caskstrength 3y ago
        Sorry, I misunderstood you. Thanks for clarifying and props for being open minded to change your position.
        ralmidani 3y ago
        No problem, and thank you! For what it’s worth, I don’t think changing a political stance should be considered “flip-flopping” unless it’s done for a self-serving purpose. Reevaluating should be considered an attempt to learn and grow. That’s why wisdom is often (but not always) associated with age and/or experience.
dahart 3y ago
Not sure why this is being downvoted, I agree that the privacy implications you called out are very serious, and I’m glad you’ve changed your mind and come to the conclusions you did. Thanks for posting about it, and sorry some people are being rude about it. I’m hearing there are a lot of people who were pro-life but didn’t ever expect Row-v-Wade to actually overturn, and now that they are seeing the real-world implications of that, are realizing it’s not a good idea to have dogmatic blanket bans. I heard a podcast about how Idaho’s in crisis because they’ve lost a bunch of their already very small number of obstetricians, because they’re now suspect and legally liable anytime a baby dies, and now women who are having serious pregnancy complications are unable to get care, and are being forced to travel long distances right at the moment they need help.
- ralmidani 3y ago
  Thank you! Retroactive shaming of anyone who was ever against your political position seems like some folks are devolving toward something even worse than cancel culture. The rudeness, as you put it, is not going to change my mind about the issue itself, but it does make me want to avoid the impossible-to-reason-with zealots.
  - dahart 3y ago
    Absolutely, we need to be doing the exact opposite and welcoming and praising people who join us. I’ll say it now: welcome! I’m glad you’re here. We will not make headway with this issue by yelling louder at each other or being more obstinate. What you did is actually hard to do, challenging your own beliefs and changing your mind. That’s commendable. To be honest, I think if we could strip all existing talking points on both sides, and get people to truly derive their own personal conclusions from scratch, I would expect the vast majority of people to be both in favor of women having absolute autonomy over their health care and body choices, and also in favor of trying to avoid abortion as a contraceptive if we can, avoiding late abortions, and hopefully using it only or mostly as a tool to treat bad situations. In other words, I would expect a lot of people to have the exact stance you’re arriving at - that we need to allow people to do what they need to, and we still hope that abortion isn’t happening excessively or willy-nilly or late without medical necessity. The core idea behind the two camps, the ‘pro-‘ position of each side, is not necessarily in opposition at all, so it’s funny it’s gotten so extreme and presented as completely opposites.

ta988 3y ago

Thank you for all of us that this issue impacts and should be able to make their own medical choices.

PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago

The problem is thinking there's a correct side. If you believe life begins at conception and that ending a life is murder, then naturally you're going to believe that abortion is murder and is therefore immoral. If you do NOT believe life begins at conception than naturally you're not going to believe it's murder and therefor not going to believe it's immoral. It's possible to disagree with someone's stance on abortion without thinking of it as correct or incorrect. --- edit: why is it people insist on arguing even when the entire point is that arguing about it isn't all that meaningful? The overarching point is to stop acting as if people are definitely right or wrong. stop arguing over semantics of words.

epcoa 3y ago
[flagged]
- l33t7332273 3y ago
  > Almost no one believes that ending a life is murder Can you elaborate on that?
  - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
    while I do think the poster is a bit of a jackass, it's obvious they meant ending the life of a fetus and not ending the life of a person in general. We can take them for what they meant rather than what they said.
  - joelfried 3y ago
    Elaborating on that is the red herring. We shouldn't have to elaborate on that, it doesn't need to be the central argument here.
  - larkost 3y ago
    I think that the poster is implying that many of the same people who describe themselves as Pro-Life also support the death penalty, are huge supporters of having a huge U.S. military (much bigger than needed for territorial defense, so obviously it is going to be used for other things), and are often loudly pro-gun (the argument here is that a gun is offensive, not defensive, so anti-life). Squaring these positions with the description Pro-Life can be a little odd. While it is a little unfair to over-simplify this way, many Trump supporters are Pro-Life, and those same people seemed to enjoy and support his recent comments: "Very simply: If you rob a store, you can fully expect to be shot as you are leaving that store". You can make a position that the thieves he was talking about have given up their right to life in a way that a fetus can not, but I think there is also an argument that this view can not be squared with a Pro-Life designation. I find my own opinion somewhere in the middle, but closer to the latter.
    - 3y ago

legitster 3y ago

> who helped me try to understand the issue from a woman’s perspective Up until about 2020 men and women had more or less similar views on abortion. https://news.gallup.com/poll/245618/abortion-trends-gender.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/245618/abortion-trends-gender.a... Even still, women's reproductive rights in general are ironically one of the least gendered opinions.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

caskstrength 3y ago

Strange to read something like this on HN, but better late than never, I guess...

ralmidani 3y ago
Thanks! Being a hacker and/or entrepreneur, even loosely defined, doesn’t imply you’re a conformist. In fact, I think what makes HN one of the most desirable places to engage with on the internet is that it’s less of an echo chamber than most.
- caskstrength 3y ago
  I'm not entirely convinced that being "pro life" is some dangerous to have, heroic, non-conformist position to take for Ohio resident, but whatever...
  - ralmidani 3y ago
    I thought it was pretty clear from the context that I meant conformist in regard to HN, not Ohio. I also don’t think of myself as a hero by any means.
    - caskstrength 3y ago
      Sorry, I misunderstood you. Thanks for clarifying and props for being open minded to change your position.
      - ralmidani 3y ago
        No problem, and thank you! For what it’s worth, I don’t think changing a political stance should be considered “flip-flopping” unless it’s done for a self-serving purpose. Reevaluating should be considered an attempt to learn and grow. That’s why wisdom is often (but not always) associated with age and/or experience.

dahart 3y ago

Not sure why this is being downvoted, I agree that the privacy implications you called out are very serious, and I’m glad you’ve changed your mind and come to the conclusions you did. Thanks for posting about it, and sorry some people are being rude about it. I’m hearing there are a lot of people who were pro-life but didn’t ever expect Row-v-Wade to actually overturn, and now that they are seeing the real-world implications of that, are realizing it’s not a good idea to have dogmatic blanket bans. I heard a podcast about how Idaho’s in crisis because they’ve lost a bunch of their already very small number of obstetricians, because they’re now suspect and legally liable anytime a baby dies, and now women who are having serious pregnancy complications are unable to get care, and are being forced to travel long distances right at the moment they need help.

ralmidani 3y ago
Thank you! Retroactive shaming of anyone who was ever against your political position seems like some folks are devolving toward something even worse than cancel culture. The rudeness, as you put it, is not going to change my mind about the issue itself, but it does make me want to avoid the impossible-to-reason-with zealots.
- dahart 3y ago
  Absolutely, we need to be doing the exact opposite and welcoming and praising people who join us. I’ll say it now: welcome! I’m glad you’re here. We will not make headway with this issue by yelling louder at each other or being more obstinate. What you did is actually hard to do, challenging your own beliefs and changing your mind. That’s commendable. To be honest, I think if we could strip all existing talking points on both sides, and get people to truly derive their own personal conclusions from scratch, I would expect the vast majority of people to be both in favor of women having absolute autonomy over their health care and body choices, and also in favor of trying to avoid abortion as a contraceptive if we can, avoiding late abortions, and hopefully using it only or mostly as a tool to treat bad situations. In other words, I would expect a lot of people to have the exact stance you’re arriving at - that we need to allow people to do what they need to, and we still hope that abortion isn’t happening excessively or willy-nilly or late without medical necessity. The core idea behind the two camps, the ‘pro-‘ position of each side, is not necessarily in opposition at all, so it’s funny it’s gotten so extreme and presented as completely opposites.