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In case you're not aware, it's because pseudoephedrine is used to make meth. As for why it's restricted in the US and not Canada, the DOJ believes that meth pro

In case you're not aware, it's because pseudoephedrine is used to make meth. As for why it's restricted in the US and not Canada, the DOJ believes that meth production in Canada is relatively low compared to the US [1]. [1] https://www.justice.gov/archive/ndic/pubs13/13853/product.htm https://www.justice.gov/archive/ndic/pubs13/13853/product.ht...

singleshot_ 3y ago
I think the implication is that the rest of the world isn’t overrun by tweakers?
SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
As a pedantic correction was used to make meth. Once the supply ran out it became just one more step to make whatever it needed other ways. Practically speaking, lots of things are used to make meth. I had to give ID last time I bought acetone. Which is crazy for all sorts of big brother reasons. I’m not a chemist, but as I understand it, meth isn’t too often made with PE anymore, yet, it sits behind the counter forever now.
- saghm 3y ago
  Obviously this isn't reflective of any actual history, but in the first season of Breaking Bad, one of the early innovations that the main characters made to how they produced meth was coming up with a method that avoided needing PE. If I remember correctly, they instead used methylamine, which is an amusingly smart choice by the writers because it literally starts with the word "meth" but has absolutely no utility when making meth, so they didn't have to worry about people getting any ideas from the show.
  - jaggederest 3y ago
    It's used in the P2P method and is a DEA List 1 chemical. It's definitely real chemistry, not fake chemistry. Much of the chemistry on the show was close enough while being vague enough not to actually help anyone who couldn't read the voluminous research papers on the matter.
    - saghm 3y ago
      Interesting! I must have misunderstand whatever explanation I heard about this back when watching it (which isn't super surprising in retrospect, given that my chemistry knowledge is limited to having taking AP chem in high school, which I'm now realizing was over a decade ago...)
      - jaggederest 3y ago
        They did throw in some red herrings, deliberately, I think, but the vibe overall was real enough. But honestly the show in general is pretty lackluster from a chemistry nerd standpoint (as is the synthesis of illicit substances in general, real snoozefest of gross white powders turning into gross illegal white powders), there are a bunch of youtube channels doing chemistry that is both more interesting AND won't cause visits from the nice people at the three letter agencies.
  - Zak 3y ago
    Phenylacetone, acetic acid, and methylamine are the ingredients in the Breaking Bad process. There are some fictional aspects, such as the blue color, but the process is real and has become the dominant method of producing meth. It's more cost-effective as I understand it, so removing restrictions on pseudoephedrine probably wouldn't have any effect on the meth supply today. https://dynomight.net/p2p-meth/ https://dynomight.net/p2p-meth/
- toss1 3y ago
  Yup. A while back, I was stopped at the register buying less than a liter of acetone and denatured alcohol (for cleaning molds and bonding surfaces for advanced composites) at the same time — forbidden. So I checked out one and paid, then checked out & paid for the other in two immediately sequential transactions. The check-out woman and I shared a small chuckle at how (in-)effective those measures were...
- pwg 3y ago
  > I’m not a chemist, but as I understand it, meth isn’t too often made with PE anymore, yet, it sits behind the counter forever now. Sadly, far too many laws, once on the books, are never considered for removal, even when the original reason for their enactment no longer applies. Unless enough of us voters badger our congress critters to repeal the "hide the PE" law, it will continue to sit behind the counter.
  - ltbarcly3 3y ago
    Sigh. If they put it back out where smurfs could gather it they would start using it again. Its interesting how Americans are so trained to interpret everything as a failure of government we will find a way to think that the law that prevents meth makers from using sudafed is outdated because meth makers are prevented from using sudafed.
    - Zak 3y ago
      Nobody should care whether meth makers are prevented from using sudafed; we should (maybe) care if they're prevented from making meth. They switched methods, and the new method seems to be more cost-effective so it's unlikely they'd switch back even without the restrictions. https://dynomight.net/p2p-meth/ https://dynomight.net/p2p-meth/
    - jaywalk 3y ago
      They've already come up with better, cheaper, more efficient methods. They don't need Sudafed anymore, so removing the stupid restriction won't affect meth production at all.
      - chowells 3y ago
        Do you actually believe this? It seems completely ignorant of human behavior to me. You see, it's not about dealing with large-scale operations. It's about keeping that one neighbor you have who always makes poor choices from grabbing 1000 boxes of Sudafed and blowing up their house. They don't care what the industrial process is, they care what they can get away with in their living room. Throttle access to pseudoephedrine sufficiently and they will look elsewhere. Make it easy to get and they'll DIY. You know, I even admire the DIY spirit involved. I just don't admire the externalities.
tptacek 3y ago
It's not so much "used to make meth" as that it is some very simple chemistry away from being meth, and that chemistry, when employed by the amateurs who use Sudafed to make meth, is particularly rough on the neighbors.
- jvanderbot 3y ago
  Paraphrasing, it's not a big deal that it's used to make meth - it's a big deal that it's used to make exploding meth labs.
- dreamcompiler 3y ago
  Yes. Pseudoephedrine itself is a mild stimulant. Tweaking the molecule (npi) turns it into a powerful stimulant.
- refurb 3y ago
  Pseudoephedrine was a massive source of meth a decade or two ago. https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna28802912 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna28802912 "Mexican authorities said they have seized nearly 3 tons of pseudoephedrine from a ship that arrived from South Korea."
kazinator 3y ago
Who needs meth when you have poutine and maple syrup to get you through Christmas?

singleshot_ 3y ago

I think the implication is that the rest of the world isn’t overrun by tweakers?

SV_BubbleTime 3y ago

As a pedantic correction was used to make meth. Once the supply ran out it became just one more step to make whatever it needed other ways. Practically speaking, lots of things are used to make meth. I had to give ID last time I bought acetone. Which is crazy for all sorts of big brother reasons. I’m not a chemist, but as I understand it, meth isn’t too often made with PE anymore, yet, it sits behind the counter forever now.

saghm 3y ago
Obviously this isn't reflective of any actual history, but in the first season of Breaking Bad, one of the early innovations that the main characters made to how they produced meth was coming up with a method that avoided needing PE. If I remember correctly, they instead used methylamine, which is an amusingly smart choice by the writers because it literally starts with the word "meth" but has absolutely no utility when making meth, so they didn't have to worry about people getting any ideas from the show.
- jaggederest 3y ago
  It's used in the P2P method and is a DEA List 1 chemical. It's definitely real chemistry, not fake chemistry. Much of the chemistry on the show was close enough while being vague enough not to actually help anyone who couldn't read the voluminous research papers on the matter.
  - saghm 3y ago
    Interesting! I must have misunderstand whatever explanation I heard about this back when watching it (which isn't super surprising in retrospect, given that my chemistry knowledge is limited to having taking AP chem in high school, which I'm now realizing was over a decade ago...)
    - jaggederest 3y ago
      They did throw in some red herrings, deliberately, I think, but the vibe overall was real enough. But honestly the show in general is pretty lackluster from a chemistry nerd standpoint (as is the synthesis of illicit substances in general, real snoozefest of gross white powders turning into gross illegal white powders), there are a bunch of youtube channels doing chemistry that is both more interesting AND won't cause visits from the nice people at the three letter agencies.
- Zak 3y ago
  Phenylacetone, acetic acid, and methylamine are the ingredients in the Breaking Bad process. There are some fictional aspects, such as the blue color, but the process is real and has become the dominant method of producing meth. It's more cost-effective as I understand it, so removing restrictions on pseudoephedrine probably wouldn't have any effect on the meth supply today. https://dynomight.net/p2p-meth/ https://dynomight.net/p2p-meth/
toss1 3y ago
Yup. A while back, I was stopped at the register buying less than a liter of acetone and denatured alcohol (for cleaning molds and bonding surfaces for advanced composites) at the same time — forbidden. So I checked out one and paid, then checked out & paid for the other in two immediately sequential transactions. The check-out woman and I shared a small chuckle at how (in-)effective those measures were...
pwg 3y ago
> I’m not a chemist, but as I understand it, meth isn’t too often made with PE anymore, yet, it sits behind the counter forever now. Sadly, far too many laws, once on the books, are never considered for removal, even when the original reason for their enactment no longer applies. Unless enough of us voters badger our congress critters to repeal the "hide the PE" law, it will continue to sit behind the counter.
- ltbarcly3 3y ago
  Sigh. If they put it back out where smurfs could gather it they would start using it again. Its interesting how Americans are so trained to interpret everything as a failure of government we will find a way to think that the law that prevents meth makers from using sudafed is outdated because meth makers are prevented from using sudafed.
  - Zak 3y ago
    Nobody should care whether meth makers are prevented from using sudafed; we should (maybe) care if they're prevented from making meth. They switched methods, and the new method seems to be more cost-effective so it's unlikely they'd switch back even without the restrictions. https://dynomight.net/p2p-meth/ https://dynomight.net/p2p-meth/
  - jaywalk 3y ago
    They've already come up with better, cheaper, more efficient methods. They don't need Sudafed anymore, so removing the stupid restriction won't affect meth production at all.
    - chowells 3y ago
      Do you actually believe this? It seems completely ignorant of human behavior to me. You see, it's not about dealing with large-scale operations. It's about keeping that one neighbor you have who always makes poor choices from grabbing 1000 boxes of Sudafed and blowing up their house. They don't care what the industrial process is, they care what they can get away with in their living room. Throttle access to pseudoephedrine sufficiently and they will look elsewhere. Make it easy to get and they'll DIY. You know, I even admire the DIY spirit involved. I just don't admire the externalities.

tptacek 3y ago

It's not so much "used to make meth" as that it is some very simple chemistry away from being meth, and that chemistry, when employed by the amateurs who use Sudafed to make meth, is particularly rough on the neighbors.

jvanderbot 3y ago
Paraphrasing, it's not a big deal that it's used to make meth - it's a big deal that it's used to make exploding meth labs.
dreamcompiler 3y ago
Yes. Pseudoephedrine itself is a mild stimulant. Tweaking the molecule (npi) turns it into a powerful stimulant.
refurb 3y ago
Pseudoephedrine was a massive source of meth a decade or two ago. https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna28802912 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna28802912 "Mexican authorities said they have seized nearly 3 tons of pseudoephedrine from a ship that arrived from South Korea."

kazinator 3y ago

Who needs meth when you have poutine and maple syrup to get you through Christmas?