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Why Is the Press Attacking Home Schoolers?

48 points by bitlax 3y ago

bitlax 3y ago
https://archive.ph/PZZ89 https://archive.ph/PZZ89
mensetmanusman 3y ago
Some people's livelihood is dependent on whether kids are at government school or at home. Of course there will be attacks. Homeschooling resources have never been better due to technology, especially in regards to extracurricular meetups. Also, families that travel a lot benefit from the flexibility.
- john015 3y ago
  [dead]
- LeifCarrotson 3y ago
  I have no qualms about actual homeschooling, but in the past few years partisanship has seen a lot of people in my area pulling students from public schools over mask mandates, science education, and "wokeism". As recently as Tuesday, some parents are suing my school district and homeschooling because a 14yo asked to be called by he/him pronouns [1]. And here in Michigan, there are no regulations on what a homeschooled student needs to learn - no testing, no curriculum, no justification required, you can just say "we're homeschooling" and until that child turns 18 they can be completely isolated from any perceived threats to your ideology. Homeschooling can be awesome when done for the right reasons! Student-teacher ratios are awesome, the curriculum and schedule can be perfectly tailored to your child's needs, interests, and abilities, and as you mention it works far better for families that need to travel a lot and technology is making the downsides less significant all the time. But it can be terrible when done for the wrong reasons. Increasingly, those wrong reasons are being used [2]: > In the vast majority of states, there are currently no protections in place for children who are homeschooled. This is the case despite a 2014 study finding that 47% of children who experience child torture were removed from school to be homeschooled (and another 29% were never enrolled in school), and a 2018 Connecticut study found that 36% of children removed from school to be homeschooled were subject to past child welfare reports. And those studies are even before the surge of people pulling students due to pandemic politics. These issues are the reason that the press is "attacking homeschoolers", not some conspiracy to get additional funding. The fact that the author does not mention this trend at all is concerning. [1] https://www.wzzm13.com/article/news/local/parents-sue-rockford-public-schools-childs-preferred-pronouns/69-2128df3b-4e25-405f-a7db-20c53786b999 https://www.wzzm13.com/article/news/local/parents-sue-rockfo... [2] https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/advocacy/policy/abuse-in-homeschooling-environments/ https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/advocacy/policy/abuse-i...
  - BackBlast 3y ago
    There is a pretty big difference between "abuse happens" and "this environment is fundamentally worse". Schools have pretty abysmal records as far as preventing abuse to children. Bullying is massive, be it student-student or teacher-student. Shunning, insults, whispered stories, hate filled slurs, popular groups vs outsider dynamics, to physical attacks. All of these are pretty common at pretty much any school you care to name. I don't think I've met a student who hasn't experienced varying levels of this. To many, it dominates their experience. The pandemic and subsequent politics of education has put a magnifying glass on the problems there and many parents are choosing to hit the eject button. There is a concerted effort to remove that button as it's starting to seriously pinch budgets anywhere a student can leave and take their funding money with them. Currently my state board of education is looking at a rule change to do just that. This battle is just warming up. If you get involved, don't be on the wrong side.
  - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
    Just reading this post something didn't line up. > claiming the school kept their child's change in preferred pronouns and name from them. And if you read further, they were purposefully switching the name of the student on paperwork presented to the parents to _actively hide_ the change. That is not at _all_ how you characterized it.
devmor 3y ago
[flagged]
- ch4s3 3y ago
  That hasn't been my experience dealing with people who were home schooled, and I'm not aware of any such data.
  - silverbax88 3y ago
    Here's your chance to get up to speed -> John Oliver breaking it down in a lot more researched detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzsZP9o7SlI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzsZP9o7SlI
    - aikinai 3y ago
      I enjoy John Oliver too, but have you ever watched a segment on something you know really well?
      - caseysoftware 3y ago
        > "Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them. > In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know." – Michael Crichton (1942-2008)
    - wtcactus 3y ago
      John Oliver is a comedian, clearly someone with an agenda, that sends his children to very expensive schools where the issues that many children face while at school don't exist, and that doesn't mention any data other than anecdotal evidence to support his particular views.
jayess 3y ago
[flagged]
rbobby 3y ago
John Oliver did an eye opening bit on homeschooling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzsZP9o7SlI&pp=ygUVam9uIG9saXZlciBob21lc2Nob29s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzsZP9o7SlI&pp=ygUVam9uIG9sa... The lack of regulation is concerning. What's truly disturbing is how easily it is for children to fall through the cracks when there are no teachers to report possible abuse. Frightening.
- nvahalik 3y ago
  > The lack of regulation is concerning. You should go talk to some teachers at large school districts. "Regulation" can be both a blessing and a curse. There is plenty of bullying, drug use, etc. at large schools where nobody wants to deal with it.
  - millzlane 3y ago
    But at least at large schools a kid has an opportunity to snitch on their abusers. Or there is someone there to spot the signs.
    - teitoklien 3y ago
      Those kids can snitch to much more competent people who are well trained and respond more quickly than schools which are notorious for suspending children who stand up to their bullies or call the police on kids just because they got into a little fight. It’s called calling 911 and calling CPS, or going to your nearest healthcare place. There are tons of ways, to checkup on kids, even just a annual mandatory children checkup is enough, or neighbours keeping an eye out and reporting issues. School neglect is often the very thing that lead children to failures, abuse from their peers, suicidal thoughts, gun violence, you name it. Not sure if modern schools are the messiah. I’m anti homeschool tho, i think parents are mostly incompetent at raising kids well, and if their children do not pass certain academic exams at grade 2,5 and 7 then they should be banned from homeschooling, an entire nation’s future depends on it. Schools should also be less politicised, all this lgbtq , critical race theory, math is racist, etc should be removed from schools, I understand it’s meaningful in some ways and well intentioned, that children learn their history, that kids learn to be more tolerant of others, but these are all values that their parents should teach them, not schools. Gutting out of advanced classes from school because too many white and asian kids got into it, instead of trying to improve outcomes for black and hispanic children, they just destroyed the advanced classes in major schools, and worsened the outcomes for EVERYBODY (I meant kids of masses, rich folks and politicians kids will still get top tier education at private school) Schools != Parents Too many schools tried to become the parent Now parents are starting to remove schools altogether. This will be bad for everyone in this country, but it was schools and government who started this mess in the first place. Now they just wanna blame parents.
Zetobal 3y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 3y ago
  Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly (e.g. here, and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38700700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38700700, and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38700233 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38700233). It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
Scubabear68 3y ago
It was certainly true for us that Covid allowed us as parents to see into our children’s daily class lives. Some of it was good, much of it…was not.
- BeefWellington 3y ago
  Well, they got a view but I'm not convinced how accurate it was given the sudden thrust of new circumstances on everyone.
  - chongli 3y ago
    I think the point is what students are being taught, not how. Covid may have radically disrupted the classroom dynamics and strained the hell out of daily lesson planning but I’m pretty sure it didn’t rewrite the history textbooks.
- blueflow 3y ago
  But parents have been to school as well (as kids), they should already know? Or did some major things change since then?
  - Scubabear68 3y ago
    Visiting the school once in a while is not the same as seeing daily class activity.
    - blowski 3y ago
      I think they're saying "parents also went to school once".
  - spunker540 3y ago
    I agree, most parents are only 15 years out from their own schooling. Some of the teachers may even be the same. (I know a lot changes in 15 years, but I’m not aware of any major shifts in education).
  - 3y ago
Ekaros 3y ago
The indoctrination pipeline they depend on starts at school or day care. Thus it is always in their interest to ensure that as large part of population as possible is indoctrinated in their belief system. So as adults they keeping following media they produce and will also pay for it.
rayiner 3y ago
Reminds me of: https://depts.washington.edu/civilr/kkk_i49.htm https://depts.washington.edu/civilr/kkk_i49.htm. Alternative education choices are threatening to the dominant ideology.
bell-cot 3y ago
Sadly, the article seems to be a cheap ideological button-pusher, and never even attempts to answer the "Why Is the Press..." question. Sure, the Teaching-Educational Complex doesn't like home schooling. But the WSJ could easily learn if (say) teachers' pension funds were buying controlling interests in news organizations - and publish a real news story about that. My theory: With the huge number of home-schooled kids, there's a never-ending supply of outrageous & clicky "Home Schooler Does X!" long-tail stories for the Press to cash in on. Vs. grim stories about bottom-of-the-curve public school districts would both require the journalists to do more work, and attract accusations of racism & such.
- tapoxi 3y ago
  WSJ Opinion has devolved into just another Murdoch rag at this point.
- throwawayqqq11 3y ago
  So superficial home schooling vs ruined public schools. What is more likely to be fixed especially when home schooling rates rise. So where should public attention be on?
  - eduction 3y ago
    Not sure where you get “superficial” but all the home schooling parents I know care deeply about their kids’ education and future — that’s why they invest the tremendous time homeschooling takes and deal with the pushback from friends and family - rather than just making the easy default choice that comes with many hours of free child care. The idea that parents would go out of their way to give a “superficial” education doesn’t make sense if you’ve ever been a parent. People care deeply about their children and their future. I’d argue what is superficial is just going along with the easy default rather than examining what is best for your specific child.
    - kspacewalk2 3y ago
      Note the difference between being superficial in fact and being superficial in the opinion of the parent. Certainly, (barring some egregious exceptions) all parents want to do what's best for their children and think they're doing so with every decision they make. The real question is - are they, in fact? They might earnestly feel that giving their wunderkind a STEM-only drill-style education is what's best for them - little budding engineers that they surely are. Conversely, having had a dislike for mathematics from an early age, they might unconsciously feel that their future Picasso doesn't need that boring stuff at all, or in very limited quantities. An important upside of attending school is that it exposes a child to a lot of different educators with different perspectives, and different biases. Their chances of discovering what they're good at and what they truly enjoy, as opposed to what mommy sincerely thinks they enjoy, is thus higher. (Also I hate that this article has just been censored on HN and most likely no one will read this reply).
unschooled 3y ago
[flagged]
- blantonl 3y ago
  Yes, the vast majority of homeschooled children are the product of extremely evangelical families who close ranks in fear that their children will be taught a perspective that doesn't align with the parent's values. And that's fine, but those kids will eventually make it out into the real world.
  - brigadier132 3y ago
    And they are not your problem.
    - blantonl 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - brigadier132 3y ago
        [flagged]
  - doodlebugging 3y ago
    I can't respond to OP since his comment has been flagged. Your comment seems to align slightly with his/hers. I have no problem with that whether it is informed opinion or not. I was just wondering overall whether you noticed their username since unschooling is another form of home schooling but with fewer restrictions on how children learn and what they learn. I have a relative who unschooled their kids though I did not take that same path with mine. Anyway, I know locally that a lot of the kids who are home schooled are outside the public school system for exactly the reasons you describe and I run into them all the time as they work their jobs locally. It's truly a mixed bag kinda like the old saying that the preacher's kids were the most fun at parties.
- dimitrios1 3y ago
blantonl 3y ago
This is a WSJ Opinion peace, so you really need to take whatever assertions that are being made with a grain of salt.
vasco 3y ago
The media publishes whatever will get views and clicks and engagement. Sometimes a topic gets started and it gets people going and they'll go with it. Press isn't fair or super accurate. There's wars where we learn about every daily happening and minutiae and there's wars where we barely know are happening. There's laws that actively kill people all the time in the millions and yet we discuss whatever current minor change to some inconsequential law triggers sensitivities and drives clicks. The press is all a business like any other business, they haven't gotten any more morals than Facebook or Monsanto, but we learn about journalistic integrity and codes from journalists and eat it up.
kixiQu 3y ago
I and my sibling were homeschooled, decades ago, and it was stellar. They have a child now and are planning to homeschool. It is with this success story background and in a personally rose-colored context that I would like to say: This piece's framing introduces conspiratorial thinking (teachers' unions' machinations!) and ideological precommitments into a topic that deserves to be taken seriously and evaluated empirically. There is a lot wrong with a lot of homeschooling as it exists today, and the gaps in our understanding should trouble anyone looking at this issue with the next generation's interest in mind. If you're curious about this topic, I'd recommend https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/ https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/ for the resources it collects and its general stance – informed by a lot of experiences of homeschooled alumni.
crazydoggers 3y ago
Around here, every homeschooler we meet is extremely religiously conservative, and is unabashed in talking about not wanting their kids to learn certain aspects of science like evolution or parts of history because it conflicts with their faith. Obviously as an anecdote, I can’t say how prevalent these types of issues are among homeschooling in general, but I do believe it’s enough of an issue to be concerned. We already have enough people raised who have trouble understanding issues that are of vital importance to our society, and it’s only becoming more of an issue. In a democracy we need an educated electorate who can make some basic educated decisions when voting. Public schools are not perfect by any means, but at least we have some say as a public about those curriculum, and have successfully fought things like intelligent design being taught in schools. A growing homeschooling trend takes those issues further out of the public’s control, and it’s in the public’s interest that kids all get at least some basic level of education. We need to take steps to strengthen our public education system, and the trend of homeschooling is at the very least an extremely concerning indication that our public school system is failing. It’s a national crisis, and most certainly will affect the US ability to compete against countries like China with strong public schooling. (Studies consistently show that Chinese students beat American children in all academic categories.)
- a_subsystem 3y ago
  Please describe to me how believing in evolution is going to help Bill put my plumbing or electrical system in correctly or be able to have a good crop this year.
  - crazydoggers 3y ago
    Bill is a voter, voting on matters of extreme importance to us all. Also, evolution is not a belief, it’s a fact. Raising a population that can’t tell fact from fiction has profound consequences to us all. Those plumbers and electricians interact with us all in complicated ways, not just their jobs. The PISA assessment by the OECD demonstrates that only 13.5% of American students age 15 were able to distinguish fact from opinion in reading tests. In a democracy, that matters more than plumbing and electrical job ability.
bigbacaloa 3y ago
[dead]
a_subsystem 3y ago
The blatant egotism/authoritarianism in this thread of believing that the government somehow has a right or duty to raise one's children is stunning. I have a relative (11 yo) is was an absolute gem of a human. I had noticed over the last 4-5 years she was becoming more reclusive, quiet, and sad in demeanor. She left public school and began homeschooling last year, and it has absolutely turned her life completely around. She is once again becoming more vibrant, enthused for life, and is thriving with new friends from her various weekly activities. I asked her if she liked her new coop school she attends (once per week) and of it she says 'there is way less drama'. Why does anyone think the potential for abuse by the education system itself and peers therein is less likely than abuse by the family? In fact, my children are now legally allowed to become sterilized in the state of California during school time and that's allowed to be kept secret for me. That is legalized abuse. For all the problems homeschooling might have, I believe the risks of 'unchecked child welfare' via family/community education FAR outweight the risks of the government run daycare centers on any day. Look at the outcomes: homeschoolers consistently score higher on standardized tests.
- no_wizard 3y ago
  >In fact, my children are now legally allowed to become sterilized in the state of California during school time and that's allowed to be kept secret for me. That is legalized abuse. Citation needed. I can find no evidence that this claim is true. In all likelihood, I'm assuming you're talking about SB 107[0] (if not, please link to what you are referencing). This bill is is meant to protect transgender youth and their families who seek refuge in California from other states that discriminate against them for seeking gender affirming care. Which is not sterilization. [0]: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/oct/31/instagram-posts/no-california-state-sen-wieners-sb-107-doesnt-call/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/oct/31/instagram-... [1]: Not the forced sterilization program that ran until 1979, which has since ended and there are reparations available for. Sad, tragic, ultimately not what I think this is about though.
  - a_subsystem 3y ago
    Yes, SB107. The bill that enables CA to take custody of your kid if they go there for the purpose of 'gender affirming care'. Since you appear to like leftist news rags (like politifact): https://www.newsweek.com/california-attacks-parents-rights-under-guise-medical-care-opinion-1747274 https://www.newsweek.com/california-attacks-parents-rights-u... Puberty blockers cause sterilization. https://wng.org/roundups/study-effects-of-puberty-blockers-can-last-a-lifetime-1617220389 https://wng.org/roundups/study-effects-of-puberty-blockers-c... Cutting off a healthy boy's dick and testicles is sterilization. Do I need to link to something for that to back up that claim? In the future, we will look back on the whole of 'gender affirming care' in wonder at how brainless and cruel we could have been to children.
1-6 3y ago
Because homeschooling reinforces the societal stereotype that men work outside and that women work in the home. But there's nothing wrong with this social structure and it is still the way a majority of families operate across the world. But there's hostility toward women who do not have careers in western culture. Women who run families and teach at home play an important role that does not get recognized in economic output.
- LtWorf 3y ago
  Women (and men) who stay at home and don't study, probably don't have the education needed to be a teacher.
- lolinder 3y ago
  > Because homeschooling reinforces the societal stereotype that men work outside and that women work in the home. My brother-in-law is the stay-at-home homeschool dad for his two kids, while his wife works. Homeschooling is completely orthogonal to traditional gender roles, it's just historically been highly correlated with very conservative families.
  - oytis 3y ago
    This arrangement is possible, but I wouldn't call it completely orthogonal. It requires one of the parents to stay at home, or both parents working part-time, but the two most frequent arrangements are working father+stay at home mother (conservative family) or two working parents (modern family), and most of the time when a family has to be homeschooling - like we've seen on scale during the pandemic - it's the mother who sacrifices her career.
parrellel 3y ago
Given family health issues our kids get to enjoy virtual school - still a public school just structured to function mostly through computer. But! We do get inundated by homeschool catalogues and materials. Wow the Young Earth Creation crowd and the alternative history / alternative science crowds are well represented. Based on the materials presented I'd guess 1/3 crazies to 2/3 people with unfortunate constraints or nonstandard schooling needs.
- blantonl 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - parrellel 3y ago
    Very well could be, my honest guess is nesting circles of bizarro world. The "we don't like social studies and history" and "we don't like sex ed" crowds leading into the "we don't believe in evolution," "we don't believe in dinosaurs," and then the "slaves were happy" and "actual nazi" sets. That's hard to eyeball though. By weight of catalogue entries 1/3 nuts.
nerdjon 3y ago
This thread is all over the place, I can't read the article since I don't pay for wsj and the archive link isn't working for me. There shouldn't be a problem with home schooling in a perfect world, but the current situation is horrible. At the very least we should expect that a student that is home schooled is taught the same basics as someone who is in the school system and we need to make sure that the student is physically ok. Properly fed and not in my physical harm. Something that going to a school provides if a kid has a very bad home situation. The lobbying for home schooling is downright frightening just how much power they have and how much they fight against what should be basic protections in the name of "parental freedom" since apparently "parental freedom" for them includes abusing children. It also doesn't help that much of the push for Home Schooling is also based an an asinine idea of "indoctrination" in the school system when many just want to indoctrinate their kids into their religion but stopping them from having a broader view of the world.
- Turing_Machine 3y ago
  > At the very least we should expect that a student that is home schooled is taught the same basics as someone who is in the school system Evidence is strongly against public school students being taught the "basics", at least in large regions of the country.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    Oh I completely agree! our school system sucks. Which is why I find it insane that we can't even require such a low bar as it is.
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
      Well, if you're going to require that bar for homeschooling, require it for public and private schools as well. (And then think very carefully about what steps you expect to happen if they fail...)
303uru 3y ago
I love the “free thinking, libertarians” who always show up for homeschooling. A growing trend thanks to propaganda and a legal defense fund out of Moscow. Just love it when free thinkers eat up the fud to help weaken the US.
Pat_Murph 3y ago
In Québec, recently there was a story of Hasidik jews homeschooling their children. They used home schooling because they didn't want their kids to mingle with us heathens... By law they are supposed to teach the kids a certain curriculum. But it turns out that they didn't teach the kids the material but thought them religious teachings instead. Now they are adults and came out against their treatment and find themselves to be lacking in a lot of basic tools needed to live in modern civilized society. As others mentionned. Homeschooling can isolate kids and exposé them to abuse and or neglect with no one to see it and denounce it like a teacher or another figure of autority. Without strict guidelines and external supervision. Homeschooling can be a dangerous thing with the wrong people.

48 points by bitlax 3y ago

https://archive.ph/PZZ89 https://archive.ph/PZZ89

Some people's livelihood is dependent on whether kids are at government school or at home. Of course there will be attacks. Homeschooling resources have never been better due to technology, especially in regards to extracurricular meetups. Also, families that travel a lot benefit from the flexibility.

john015 3y ago
[dead]
LeifCarrotson 3y ago
I have no qualms about actual homeschooling, but in the past few years partisanship has seen a lot of people in my area pulling students from public schools over mask mandates, science education, and "wokeism". As recently as Tuesday, some parents are suing my school district and homeschooling because a 14yo asked to be called by he/him pronouns [1]. And here in Michigan, there are no regulations on what a homeschooled student needs to learn - no testing, no curriculum, no justification required, you can just say "we're homeschooling" and until that child turns 18 they can be completely isolated from any perceived threats to your ideology. Homeschooling can be awesome when done for the right reasons! Student-teacher ratios are awesome, the curriculum and schedule can be perfectly tailored to your child's needs, interests, and abilities, and as you mention it works far better for families that need to travel a lot and technology is making the downsides less significant all the time. But it can be terrible when done for the wrong reasons. Increasingly, those wrong reasons are being used [2]: > In the vast majority of states, there are currently no protections in place for children who are homeschooled. This is the case despite a 2014 study finding that 47% of children who experience child torture were removed from school to be homeschooled (and another 29% were never enrolled in school), and a 2018 Connecticut study found that 36% of children removed from school to be homeschooled were subject to past child welfare reports. And those studies are even before the surge of people pulling students due to pandemic politics. These issues are the reason that the press is "attacking homeschoolers", not some conspiracy to get additional funding. The fact that the author does not mention this trend at all is concerning. [1] https://www.wzzm13.com/article/news/local/parents-sue-rockford-public-schools-childs-preferred-pronouns/69-2128df3b-4e25-405f-a7db-20c53786b999 https://www.wzzm13.com/article/news/local/parents-sue-rockfo... [2] https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/advocacy/policy/abuse-in-homeschooling-environments/ https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/advocacy/policy/abuse-i...
- BackBlast 3y ago
  There is a pretty big difference between "abuse happens" and "this environment is fundamentally worse". Schools have pretty abysmal records as far as preventing abuse to children. Bullying is massive, be it student-student or teacher-student. Shunning, insults, whispered stories, hate filled slurs, popular groups vs outsider dynamics, to physical attacks. All of these are pretty common at pretty much any school you care to name. I don't think I've met a student who hasn't experienced varying levels of this. To many, it dominates their experience. The pandemic and subsequent politics of education has put a magnifying glass on the problems there and many parents are choosing to hit the eject button. There is a concerted effort to remove that button as it's starting to seriously pinch budgets anywhere a student can leave and take their funding money with them. Currently my state board of education is looking at a rule change to do just that. This battle is just warming up. If you get involved, don't be on the wrong side.
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
  Just reading this post something didn't line up. > claiming the school kept their child's change in preferred pronouns and name from them. And if you read further, they were purposefully switching the name of the student on paperwork presented to the parents to _actively hide_ the change. That is not at _all_ how you characterized it.

devmor 3y ago

[flagged]

ch4s3 3y ago
That hasn't been my experience dealing with people who were home schooled, and I'm not aware of any such data.
- silverbax88 3y ago
  Here's your chance to get up to speed -> John Oliver breaking it down in a lot more researched detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzsZP9o7SlI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzsZP9o7SlI
  - aikinai 3y ago
    I enjoy John Oliver too, but have you ever watched a segment on something you know really well?
    - caseysoftware 3y ago
      > "Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them. > In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know." – Michael Crichton (1942-2008)
  - wtcactus 3y ago
    John Oliver is a comedian, clearly someone with an agenda, that sends his children to very expensive schools where the issues that many children face while at school don't exist, and that doesn't mention any data other than anecdotal evidence to support his particular views.

jayess 3y ago

[flagged]

rbobby 3y ago

John Oliver did an eye opening bit on homeschooling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzsZP9o7SlI&pp=ygUVam9uIG9saXZlciBob21lc2Nob29s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzsZP9o7SlI&pp=ygUVam9uIG9sa... The lack of regulation is concerning. What's truly disturbing is how easily it is for children to fall through the cracks when there are no teachers to report possible abuse. Frightening.

nvahalik 3y ago
> The lack of regulation is concerning. You should go talk to some teachers at large school districts. "Regulation" can be both a blessing and a curse. There is plenty of bullying, drug use, etc. at large schools where nobody wants to deal with it.
- millzlane 3y ago
  But at least at large schools a kid has an opportunity to snitch on their abusers. Or there is someone there to spot the signs.
  - teitoklien 3y ago
    Those kids can snitch to much more competent people who are well trained and respond more quickly than schools which are notorious for suspending children who stand up to their bullies or call the police on kids just because they got into a little fight. It’s called calling 911 and calling CPS, or going to your nearest healthcare place. There are tons of ways, to checkup on kids, even just a annual mandatory children checkup is enough, or neighbours keeping an eye out and reporting issues. School neglect is often the very thing that lead children to failures, abuse from their peers, suicidal thoughts, gun violence, you name it. Not sure if modern schools are the messiah. I’m anti homeschool tho, i think parents are mostly incompetent at raising kids well, and if their children do not pass certain academic exams at grade 2,5 and 7 then they should be banned from homeschooling, an entire nation’s future depends on it. Schools should also be less politicised, all this lgbtq , critical race theory, math is racist, etc should be removed from schools, I understand it’s meaningful in some ways and well intentioned, that children learn their history, that kids learn to be more tolerant of others, but these are all values that their parents should teach them, not schools. Gutting out of advanced classes from school because too many white and asian kids got into it, instead of trying to improve outcomes for black and hispanic children, they just destroyed the advanced classes in major schools, and worsened the outcomes for EVERYBODY (I meant kids of masses, rich folks and politicians kids will still get top tier education at private school) Schools != Parents Too many schools tried to become the parent Now parents are starting to remove schools altogether. This will be bad for everyone in this country, but it was schools and government who started this mess in the first place. Now they just wanna blame parents.

Zetobal 3y ago

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deleted 3y ago
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dang 3y ago
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly (e.g. here, and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38700700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38700700, and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38700233 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38700233). It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Scubabear68 3y ago

It was certainly true for us that Covid allowed us as parents to see into our children’s daily class lives. Some of it was good, much of it…was not.

BeefWellington 3y ago
Well, they got a view but I'm not convinced how accurate it was given the sudden thrust of new circumstances on everyone.
- chongli 3y ago
  I think the point is what students are being taught, not how. Covid may have radically disrupted the classroom dynamics and strained the hell out of daily lesson planning but I’m pretty sure it didn’t rewrite the history textbooks.
blueflow 3y ago
But parents have been to school as well (as kids), they should already know? Or did some major things change since then?
- Scubabear68 3y ago
  Visiting the school once in a while is not the same as seeing daily class activity.
  - blowski 3y ago
    I think they're saying "parents also went to school once".
- spunker540 3y ago
  I agree, most parents are only 15 years out from their own schooling. Some of the teachers may even be the same. (I know a lot changes in 15 years, but I’m not aware of any major shifts in education).
- 3y ago

Ekaros 3y ago

The indoctrination pipeline they depend on starts at school or day care. Thus it is always in their interest to ensure that as large part of population as possible is indoctrinated in their belief system. So as adults they keeping following media they produce and will also pay for it.

rayiner 3y ago

Reminds me of: https://depts.washington.edu/civilr/kkk_i49.htm https://depts.washington.edu/civilr/kkk_i49.htm. Alternative education choices are threatening to the dominant ideology.

bell-cot 3y ago

Sadly, the article seems to be a cheap ideological button-pusher, and never even attempts to answer the "Why Is the Press..." question. Sure, the Teaching-Educational Complex doesn't like home schooling. But the WSJ could easily learn if (say) teachers' pension funds were buying controlling interests in news organizations - and publish a real news story about that. My theory: With the huge number of home-schooled kids, there's a never-ending supply of outrageous & clicky "Home Schooler Does X!" long-tail stories for the Press to cash in on. Vs. grim stories about bottom-of-the-curve public school districts would both require the journalists to do more work, and attract accusations of racism & such.

tapoxi 3y ago
WSJ Opinion has devolved into just another Murdoch rag at this point.
throwawayqqq11 3y ago
So superficial home schooling vs ruined public schools. What is more likely to be fixed especially when home schooling rates rise. So where should public attention be on?
- eduction 3y ago
  Not sure where you get “superficial” but all the home schooling parents I know care deeply about their kids’ education and future — that’s why they invest the tremendous time homeschooling takes and deal with the pushback from friends and family - rather than just making the easy default choice that comes with many hours of free child care. The idea that parents would go out of their way to give a “superficial” education doesn’t make sense if you’ve ever been a parent. People care deeply about their children and their future. I’d argue what is superficial is just going along with the easy default rather than examining what is best for your specific child.
  - kspacewalk2 3y ago
    Note the difference between being superficial in fact and being superficial in the opinion of the parent. Certainly, (barring some egregious exceptions) all parents want to do what's best for their children and think they're doing so with every decision they make. The real question is - are they, in fact? They might earnestly feel that giving their wunderkind a STEM-only drill-style education is what's best for them - little budding engineers that they surely are. Conversely, having had a dislike for mathematics from an early age, they might unconsciously feel that their future Picasso doesn't need that boring stuff at all, or in very limited quantities. An important upside of attending school is that it exposes a child to a lot of different educators with different perspectives, and different biases. Their chances of discovering what they're good at and what they truly enjoy, as opposed to what mommy sincerely thinks they enjoy, is thus higher. (Also I hate that this article has just been censored on HN and most likely no one will read this reply).

unschooled 3y ago

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blantonl 3y ago
Yes, the vast majority of homeschooled children are the product of extremely evangelical families who close ranks in fear that their children will be taught a perspective that doesn't align with the parent's values. And that's fine, but those kids will eventually make it out into the real world.
- brigadier132 3y ago
  And they are not your problem.
  - blantonl 3y ago
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    - brigadier132 3y ago
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- doodlebugging 3y ago
  I can't respond to OP since his comment has been flagged. Your comment seems to align slightly with his/hers. I have no problem with that whether it is informed opinion or not. I was just wondering overall whether you noticed their username since unschooling is another form of home schooling but with fewer restrictions on how children learn and what they learn. I have a relative who unschooled their kids though I did not take that same path with mine. Anyway, I know locally that a lot of the kids who are home schooled are outside the public school system for exactly the reasons you describe and I run into them all the time as they work their jobs locally. It's truly a mixed bag kinda like the old saying that the preacher's kids were the most fun at parties.
dimitrios1 3y ago

blantonl 3y ago

This is a WSJ Opinion peace, so you really need to take whatever assertions that are being made with a grain of salt.

vasco 3y ago

The media publishes whatever will get views and clicks and engagement. Sometimes a topic gets started and it gets people going and they'll go with it. Press isn't fair or super accurate. There's wars where we learn about every daily happening and minutiae and there's wars where we barely know are happening. There's laws that actively kill people all the time in the millions and yet we discuss whatever current minor change to some inconsequential law triggers sensitivities and drives clicks. The press is all a business like any other business, they haven't gotten any more morals than Facebook or Monsanto, but we learn about journalistic integrity and codes from journalists and eat it up.

kixiQu 3y ago

I and my sibling were homeschooled, decades ago, and it was stellar. They have a child now and are planning to homeschool. It is with this success story background and in a personally rose-colored context that I would like to say: This piece's framing introduces conspiratorial thinking (teachers' unions' machinations!) and ideological precommitments into a topic that deserves to be taken seriously and evaluated empirically. There is a lot wrong with a lot of homeschooling as it exists today, and the gaps in our understanding should trouble anyone looking at this issue with the next generation's interest in mind. If you're curious about this topic, I'd recommend https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/ https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/ for the resources it collects and its general stance – informed by a lot of experiences of homeschooled alumni.

crazydoggers 3y ago

Around here, every homeschooler we meet is extremely religiously conservative, and is unabashed in talking about not wanting their kids to learn certain aspects of science like evolution or parts of history because it conflicts with their faith. Obviously as an anecdote, I can’t say how prevalent these types of issues are among homeschooling in general, but I do believe it’s enough of an issue to be concerned. We already have enough people raised who have trouble understanding issues that are of vital importance to our society, and it’s only becoming more of an issue. In a democracy we need an educated electorate who can make some basic educated decisions when voting. Public schools are not perfect by any means, but at least we have some say as a public about those curriculum, and have successfully fought things like intelligent design being taught in schools. A growing homeschooling trend takes those issues further out of the public’s control, and it’s in the public’s interest that kids all get at least some basic level of education. We need to take steps to strengthen our public education system, and the trend of homeschooling is at the very least an extremely concerning indication that our public school system is failing. It’s a national crisis, and most certainly will affect the US ability to compete against countries like China with strong public schooling. (Studies consistently show that Chinese students beat American children in all academic categories.)

a_subsystem 3y ago
Please describe to me how believing in evolution is going to help Bill put my plumbing or electrical system in correctly or be able to have a good crop this year.
- crazydoggers 3y ago
  Bill is a voter, voting on matters of extreme importance to us all. Also, evolution is not a belief, it’s a fact. Raising a population that can’t tell fact from fiction has profound consequences to us all. Those plumbers and electricians interact with us all in complicated ways, not just their jobs. The PISA assessment by the OECD demonstrates that only 13.5% of American students age 15 were able to distinguish fact from opinion in reading tests. In a democracy, that matters more than plumbing and electrical job ability.

bigbacaloa 3y ago

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a_subsystem 3y ago

The blatant egotism/authoritarianism in this thread of believing that the government somehow has a right or duty to raise one's children is stunning. I have a relative (11 yo) is was an absolute gem of a human. I had noticed over the last 4-5 years she was becoming more reclusive, quiet, and sad in demeanor. She left public school and began homeschooling last year, and it has absolutely turned her life completely around. She is once again becoming more vibrant, enthused for life, and is thriving with new friends from her various weekly activities. I asked her if she liked her new coop school she attends (once per week) and of it she says 'there is way less drama'. Why does anyone think the potential for abuse by the education system itself and peers therein is less likely than abuse by the family? In fact, my children are now legally allowed to become sterilized in the state of California during school time and that's allowed to be kept secret for me. That is legalized abuse. For all the problems homeschooling might have, I believe the risks of 'unchecked child welfare' via family/community education FAR outweight the risks of the government run daycare centers on any day. Look at the outcomes: homeschoolers consistently score higher on standardized tests.

no_wizard 3y ago
>In fact, my children are now legally allowed to become sterilized in the state of California during school time and that's allowed to be kept secret for me. That is legalized abuse. Citation needed. I can find no evidence that this claim is true. In all likelihood, I'm assuming you're talking about SB 107[0] (if not, please link to what you are referencing). This bill is is meant to protect transgender youth and their families who seek refuge in California from other states that discriminate against them for seeking gender affirming care. Which is not sterilization. [0]: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/oct/31/instagram-posts/no-california-state-sen-wieners-sb-107-doesnt-call/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/oct/31/instagram-... [1]: Not the forced sterilization program that ran until 1979, which has since ended and there are reparations available for. Sad, tragic, ultimately not what I think this is about though.
- a_subsystem 3y ago
  Yes, SB107. The bill that enables CA to take custody of your kid if they go there for the purpose of 'gender affirming care'. Since you appear to like leftist news rags (like politifact): https://www.newsweek.com/california-attacks-parents-rights-under-guise-medical-care-opinion-1747274 https://www.newsweek.com/california-attacks-parents-rights-u... Puberty blockers cause sterilization. https://wng.org/roundups/study-effects-of-puberty-blockers-can-last-a-lifetime-1617220389 https://wng.org/roundups/study-effects-of-puberty-blockers-c... Cutting off a healthy boy's dick and testicles is sterilization. Do I need to link to something for that to back up that claim? In the future, we will look back on the whole of 'gender affirming care' in wonder at how brainless and cruel we could have been to children.

1-6 3y ago

Because homeschooling reinforces the societal stereotype that men work outside and that women work in the home. But there's nothing wrong with this social structure and it is still the way a majority of families operate across the world. But there's hostility toward women who do not have careers in western culture. Women who run families and teach at home play an important role that does not get recognized in economic output.

LtWorf 3y ago
Women (and men) who stay at home and don't study, probably don't have the education needed to be a teacher.
lolinder 3y ago
> Because homeschooling reinforces the societal stereotype that men work outside and that women work in the home. My brother-in-law is the stay-at-home homeschool dad for his two kids, while his wife works. Homeschooling is completely orthogonal to traditional gender roles, it's just historically been highly correlated with very conservative families.
- oytis 3y ago
  This arrangement is possible, but I wouldn't call it completely orthogonal. It requires one of the parents to stay at home, or both parents working part-time, but the two most frequent arrangements are working father+stay at home mother (conservative family) or two working parents (modern family), and most of the time when a family has to be homeschooling - like we've seen on scale during the pandemic - it's the mother who sacrifices her career.

parrellel 3y ago

Given family health issues our kids get to enjoy virtual school - still a public school just structured to function mostly through computer. But! We do get inundated by homeschool catalogues and materials. Wow the Young Earth Creation crowd and the alternative history / alternative science crowds are well represented. Based on the materials presented I'd guess 1/3 crazies to 2/3 people with unfortunate constraints or nonstandard schooling needs.

blantonl 3y ago
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- parrellel 3y ago
  Very well could be, my honest guess is nesting circles of bizarro world. The "we don't like social studies and history" and "we don't like sex ed" crowds leading into the "we don't believe in evolution," "we don't believe in dinosaurs," and then the "slaves were happy" and "actual nazi" sets. That's hard to eyeball though. By weight of catalogue entries 1/3 nuts.

nerdjon 3y ago

This thread is all over the place, I can't read the article since I don't pay for wsj and the archive link isn't working for me. There shouldn't be a problem with home schooling in a perfect world, but the current situation is horrible. At the very least we should expect that a student that is home schooled is taught the same basics as someone who is in the school system and we need to make sure that the student is physically ok. Properly fed and not in my physical harm. Something that going to a school provides if a kid has a very bad home situation. The lobbying for home schooling is downright frightening just how much power they have and how much they fight against what should be basic protections in the name of "parental freedom" since apparently "parental freedom" for them includes abusing children. It also doesn't help that much of the push for Home Schooling is also based an an asinine idea of "indoctrination" in the school system when many just want to indoctrinate their kids into their religion but stopping them from having a broader view of the world.

Turing_Machine 3y ago
> At the very least we should expect that a student that is home schooled is taught the same basics as someone who is in the school system Evidence is strongly against public school students being taught the "basics", at least in large regions of the country.
- nerdjon 3y ago
  Oh I completely agree! our school system sucks. Which is why I find it insane that we can't even require such a low bar as it is.
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    Well, if you're going to require that bar for homeschooling, require it for public and private schools as well. (And then think very carefully about what steps you expect to happen if they fail...)

303uru 3y ago

I love the “free thinking, libertarians” who always show up for homeschooling. A growing trend thanks to propaganda and a legal defense fund out of Moscow. Just love it when free thinkers eat up the fud to help weaken the US.

Pat_Murph 3y ago

In Québec, recently there was a story of Hasidik jews homeschooling their children. They used home schooling because they didn't want their kids to mingle with us heathens... By law they are supposed to teach the kids a certain curriculum. But it turns out that they didn't teach the kids the material but thought them religious teachings instead. Now they are adults and came out against their treatment and find themselves to be lacking in a lot of basic tools needed to live in modern civilized society. As others mentionned. Homeschooling can isolate kids and exposé them to abuse and or neglect with no one to see it and denounce it like a teacher or another figure of autority. Without strict guidelines and external supervision. Homeschooling can be a dangerous thing with the wrong people.