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Please link to an article that documents a single subsidy that Tesla got from the government.

by grecy 3y ago

natch 3y ago
Crickets. Legacy auto has gotten so many multi billion dollar bailouts but people keep repeating this lie about Tesla without delving into big oil and legacy auto.
tristan957 3y ago
The federal government is currently running a program where they will give you a $7500 tax break for buying a qualifying electric vehicle. Tesla, being the go-to for electric vehicles at the moment, is obviously a large beneficiary of this, even going so far as to adjust the pricing on one of its vehicles to meet the program's requirements.
- grecy 3y ago
  Tesla are getting exactly $0 of this money (it goes to the customer). Also, every other automaker can make cars that qualify. In fact, many already do! Also note Tesla do not make a single PEHV, so in fact plenty of automakers make vehicles that qualify and Tesla doesn't. Here's the lists: EVs: https://electrek.co/2023/11/07/which-electric-vehicles-still-qualify-for-us-federal-tax-credit/#h-all-electric-vehicles https://electrek.co/2023/11/07/which-electric-vehicles-still... PEHVs: https://electrek.co/2023/11/07/which-electric-vehicles-still-qualify-for-us-federal-tax-credit/#h-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicles https://electrek.co/2023/11/07/which-electric-vehicles-still...
  - sangnoir 3y ago
    > Tesla are getting exactly $0 of this money (it goes to the customer). You're technically correct, when limiting to first order effects of the rebate. It would be equally technically correct to state farmers don't get any money from SNAP (it goes to the customer!), and yet SNAP is "surprisingly" (to pendants) included in the Farm bill. Your assertion that Tesla doesn't get any money from subsides is radical because it suggests that either subsidies don't work, or the do work with none value making it's way to the upstream industry the government explicitly set out to support with subsidies. Either one of these positions need supporting evidence.
    - grecy 3y ago
      > it suggests that either subsidies don't work, or the do work with none value making it's way to the upstream industry the government explicitly set out to support with subsidies. Did the government set out to subsidise an upstream industry, or did they set out to incentivise consumers to purchase certain products? i.e. EVs not ICE. > Either one of these positions need supporting evidence. Interesting that mine do, and yours don't.
      - sangnoir 3y ago
        > Did the government set out to subsidise an upstream industry, or did they set out to incentivise consumers to purchase certain products? It's both. If you want customers to buy certain products in large volumes, there has to be capacity to manufacture said products in large volumes. > Interesting that mine do, and yours don't. Me asking you for evidence does not preclude you from asking the same of me. If you want evidence that government subsidies and incentives do work, I can readily provide that[1] - it seems pretty self-evident to me considering history, and international trade complaints about subsidies. 1. https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/15/1/534 https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/15/1/534, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10131743/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10131743/, cash for clunkers, etc
sangnoir 3y ago
I said will which means it's in the future. The IRA EV grants can be found here: https://www.atlasevhub.com/materials/the-inflation-reduction-act-ev-provisions/ https://www.atlasevhub.com/materials/the-inflation-reduction... and if you think Tesla is not going to apply (amd receive) most of the $7 billion for infrastructure, I don't know what to tell you (I'm willing take the other side of your bet in this though). Earlier this year, most in the industry assumed CCS networks would get the money because the law was written with a requirement for interoperability (3 or more makes). Time line of events: 2014: Tesla opens up its charger patents [Crickets] 2022H2: IRA signed with billions available to fund interoperable charging networks (i.e. CCS at tine of signing) 2022 November: Tesla renames standard to NACS. 2023: Tesla signs agreements with other manufacturers to use it's network. Do you suppose it was a coincidence that Tesla's standardization and agreements came within months of billions of federal money being put in the table? Billions that would have gone to an competing charging networks/competing standards?

Please link to an article that documents a single subsidy that Tesla got from the government.

by grecy 3y ago

Please link to an article that documents a single subsidy that Tesla got from the government.

Crickets. Legacy auto has gotten so many multi billion dollar bailouts but people keep repeating this lie about Tesla without delving into big oil and legacy auto.

tristan957 3y ago

The federal government is currently running a program where they will give you a $7500 tax break for buying a qualifying electric vehicle. Tesla, being the go-to for electric vehicles at the moment, is obviously a large beneficiary of this, even going so far as to adjust the pricing on one of its vehicles to meet the program's requirements.

grecy 3y ago
Tesla are getting exactly $0 of this money (it goes to the customer). Also, every other automaker can make cars that qualify. In fact, many already do! Also note Tesla do not make a single PEHV, so in fact plenty of automakers make vehicles that qualify and Tesla doesn't. Here's the lists: EVs: https://electrek.co/2023/11/07/which-electric-vehicles-still-qualify-for-us-federal-tax-credit/#h-all-electric-vehicles https://electrek.co/2023/11/07/which-electric-vehicles-still... PEHVs: https://electrek.co/2023/11/07/which-electric-vehicles-still-qualify-for-us-federal-tax-credit/#h-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicles https://electrek.co/2023/11/07/which-electric-vehicles-still...
- sangnoir 3y ago
  > Tesla are getting exactly $0 of this money (it goes to the customer). You're technically correct, when limiting to first order effects of the rebate. It would be equally technically correct to state farmers don't get any money from SNAP (it goes to the customer!), and yet SNAP is "surprisingly" (to pendants) included in the Farm bill. Your assertion that Tesla doesn't get any money from subsides is radical because it suggests that either subsidies don't work, or the do work with none value making it's way to the upstream industry the government explicitly set out to support with subsidies. Either one of these positions need supporting evidence.
  - grecy 3y ago
    > it suggests that either subsidies don't work, or the do work with none value making it's way to the upstream industry the government explicitly set out to support with subsidies. Did the government set out to subsidise an upstream industry, or did they set out to incentivise consumers to purchase certain products? i.e. EVs not ICE. > Either one of these positions need supporting evidence. Interesting that mine do, and yours don't.
    - sangnoir 3y ago
      > Did the government set out to subsidise an upstream industry, or did they set out to incentivise consumers to purchase certain products? It's both. If you want customers to buy certain products in large volumes, there has to be capacity to manufacture said products in large volumes. > Interesting that mine do, and yours don't. Me asking you for evidence does not preclude you from asking the same of me. If you want evidence that government subsidies and incentives do work, I can readily provide that[1] - it seems pretty self-evident to me considering history, and international trade complaints about subsidies. 1. https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/15/1/534 https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/15/1/534, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10131743/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10131743/, cash for clunkers, etc

sangnoir 3y ago

I said will which means it's in the future. The IRA EV grants can be found here: https://www.atlasevhub.com/materials/the-inflation-reduction-act-ev-provisions/ https://www.atlasevhub.com/materials/the-inflation-reduction... and if you think Tesla is not going to apply (amd receive) most of the $7 billion for infrastructure, I don't know what to tell you (I'm willing take the other side of your bet in this though). Earlier this year, most in the industry assumed CCS networks would get the money because the law was written with a requirement for interoperability (3 or more makes). Time line of events: 2014: Tesla opens up its charger patents [Crickets] 2022H2: IRA signed with billions available to fund interoperable charging networks (i.e. CCS at tine of signing) 2022 November: Tesla renames standard to NACS. 2023: Tesla signs agreements with other manufacturers to use it's network. Do you suppose it was a coincidence that Tesla's standardization and agreements came within months of billions of federal money being put in the table? Billions that would have gone to an competing charging networks/competing standards?