4 ms·

That's a very nice way to put it, but in reality this turned out to be money not spent wisely and instead distorting the market. This often does not lead to inn

by kaoD 3y ago

That's a very nice way to put it, but in reality this turned out to be money not spent wisely and instead distorting the market. This often does not lead to innovation, see e.g. the absolutely zero innovation that we got from the cryptocurrency craze. It could even stifle innovation by distorting the market in weird ways, driving away the money from productive (but less speculative) endeavors. > It’s why having deflation or 0 inflation in an economy is bad, because they want people to invest back and take risks in an economy ? You can also tax the shit out of large capital in a non-linear fashion which, unlike inflation, will not hit the small savers. This will still encourage that capital to not stay in banks, while helping small savers to build capital (which is the only way to really drive out the oligopoly) instead of riding the funding wave and hoping for an exit out of a business built on burning money which will only make the corporate conglomerates even bigger when they acquire you (which is your only incentive as a business-owner, to strive for an exit, since otherwise you'll just be hemorrhaging money from your "business"). Note I don't think this is the way to go, I just think the common narrative (which I saw implicitly in your comment, forgive me if I'm wrong) is just a rose-tinted glance at our current situation in post-capitalism.

teitoklien 3y ago
You’re right I missed some important stuff, came across this a bit later, a couple of minutes ago: [Destruction of America’s middle class](https://seekingalpha.com/article/4346450-federal-reserve-and-ongoing-destruction-of-bottom-90-percent https://seekingalpha.com/article/4346450-federal-reserve-and...) > The crypto currency craze while definitely was a horrible phase, it did end up giving america a lot of advantages, it incurred a ton of demand for american GPU tech which helped it advance faster and have more cash reserves to take risks, this allowed usa to get a headstart to AI which if it uses well, will usher in a new era of innovation for you guys. You might argue that we could just spent 1/20th the amount in gpu market and gotten the same result, but truth is prolly wouldn’t have happened that way. > You can also tax the shit out of large capital in a non-linear fashion which, unlike inflation, will not hit the small savers. This will never happen, it’ll cause all of the money to flee out of america overnight, it’s the reason why usa and europe is desperately trying to increase the minimum corporate tax rate globally. In a post globalised world, it’s no longer as simple as just pulling a lever. > which is the only way to really drive out the oligopoly The way to drive oligopoly out is by breaking up oligopolies and bringing competition into the market, usa has done this several times, standard oil, AT&T, etc. You cant shove people’s wallet out into the ocean, and tell them they either spend it or lose it, they’ll panic, they’ll scream for safety, if they cant keep the money in bank, where will they invest ? The most safest and established businesses, ala those oligopolies. You cant force them to spend and then expect them to start gambling left and right, they’ll instead just want to find safer shores. The only reliable way to breaking up monopolies is to break up monopolies. > just a rose-tinted glance at our current situation in post-capitalism. You’re right, after reading a few more responses i realised i made the comment a bit too hastily and impulsively not seeing through what everything i said actually meant. But I also don’t think, it’s that “wrong” even the most greedy want to invest in the sane things, if people invested in so many unsustainable businesses, it means there weren’t enough sustainable options to put in that money in the first place. If USA had not created that 0% interest rate environment, it wouldn’t have been able to take any advantage of the petro dollar benefits. Initially USA had expected the middle east to invest all their earnings into america, that they got paid with usd for oil, instead most of the money went to asia. That was just the first sign of trouble in usa. That along with stupid government policies around offshoring so much production to a communist country like China didnt help either. So yes, i agree with you, it was a bad move, but it wasn’t VCs that created america’s impending ruin, its government policy.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  Who do you think writes government policy? The entire US government is captured by corporate interests and has been for decades. [0] Voters have effectively no say over who runs for congress or president, as those are controlled by party leaders who are - you guessed it - sponsored by "interest groups." Even at the local level, corporate governors are focused on district chairs (like Anne Wheeler in PW County, VA) to push through all manner of things like rezoning, tax credits etc... for "development." We're dealing with exactly this right now with Amazon pushing data centers into our farmland and depleting our Aquifer. [1] [0]https://publicintegrity.org/politics/state-politics/copy-paste-legislate/you-elected-them-to-write-new-laws-theyre-letting-corporations-do-it-instead/ https://publicintegrity.org/politics/state-politics/copy-pas... [1]https://protectpwc.org/ https://protectpwc.org/
  - teitoklien 3y ago
    Politicians write government policies, corruption and a distracted public causes them to write bad policies People will always try to corrupt a powerful force like government. You can cry, shoot VC, destroy them, jail them, whatever, there will always be this VC class Politicians should be held accountable, they got the vote, they got the protection (police, bodyguards, secret service) If they betray people for money, then that means they write bad policians. In CCP, there are a ton more corrupt businessmen who’d love to write their gov’s policy in everything. Yet CCP successfully controls them, breaks them up, write pro consumer policy. And heck they are run by a dictator ! American politicians have no excuse to write bad policies, its those politicians who should be held accountable, VCs will always try to corrupt politicians, if not them, than foreign governments will happily pay up and take that spot. It’s not an excuse If a corrupt gov makes bad policies Then that’s it. It. Makes. Bad. Policies.
    - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
      The US is an "anarcho-capitalist" wasteland of domination that takes great amazing powerful innovations from talented people and uses them to oppress the least powerful underclasses. Always has always been I'm unaware of an example where this is not true. Every single major "innovation" came at the cost of some indigenous person's property or is exploiting a worker who is in crisis. In fact when US producers run out of people to exploit in the US, corporations pushed politicians to pass "treaties" such as NAFTA etc... to expand the pool of exploitable labor while ensuring the previous workers cannot compete.
poisonborz 3y ago
And megacorps surely haven't taken extreme measures to avoid those taxes, also lobbying the crap out of officials who avoid enforcing them in the first place to not lose cool points in ""the global tech race"". Weirdly the good example here is Russia and China where the state did not refrain from extreme measures to show the market whales their place.
- te_chris 3y ago
  China, maybe. But mafia state Russia??? Come on.

by kaoD 3y ago

teitoklien 3y ago

You’re right I missed some important stuff, came across this a bit later, a couple of minutes ago: [Destruction of America’s middle class](https://seekingalpha.com/article/4346450-federal-reserve-and-ongoing-destruction-of-bottom-90-percent https://seekingalpha.com/article/4346450-federal-reserve-and...) > The crypto currency craze while definitely was a horrible phase, it did end up giving america a lot of advantages, it incurred a ton of demand for american GPU tech which helped it advance faster and have more cash reserves to take risks, this allowed usa to get a headstart to AI which if it uses well, will usher in a new era of innovation for you guys. You might argue that we could just spent 1/20th the amount in gpu market and gotten the same result, but truth is prolly wouldn’t have happened that way. > You can also tax the shit out of large capital in a non-linear fashion which, unlike inflation, will not hit the small savers. This will never happen, it’ll cause all of the money to flee out of america overnight, it’s the reason why usa and europe is desperately trying to increase the minimum corporate tax rate globally. In a post globalised world, it’s no longer as simple as just pulling a lever. > which is the only way to really drive out the oligopoly The way to drive oligopoly out is by breaking up oligopolies and bringing competition into the market, usa has done this several times, standard oil, AT&T, etc. You cant shove people’s wallet out into the ocean, and tell them they either spend it or lose it, they’ll panic, they’ll scream for safety, if they cant keep the money in bank, where will they invest ? The most safest and established businesses, ala those oligopolies. You cant force them to spend and then expect them to start gambling left and right, they’ll instead just want to find safer shores. The only reliable way to breaking up monopolies is to break up monopolies. > just a rose-tinted glance at our current situation in post-capitalism. You’re right, after reading a few more responses i realised i made the comment a bit too hastily and impulsively not seeing through what everything i said actually meant. But I also don’t think, it’s that “wrong” even the most greedy want to invest in the sane things, if people invested in so many unsustainable businesses, it means there weren’t enough sustainable options to put in that money in the first place. If USA had not created that 0% interest rate environment, it wouldn’t have been able to take any advantage of the petro dollar benefits. Initially USA had expected the middle east to invest all their earnings into america, that they got paid with usd for oil, instead most of the money went to asia. That was just the first sign of trouble in usa. That along with stupid government policies around offshoring so much production to a communist country like China didnt help either. So yes, i agree with you, it was a bad move, but it wasn’t VCs that created america’s impending ruin, its government policy.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago
Who do you think writes government policy? The entire US government is captured by corporate interests and has been for decades. [0] Voters have effectively no say over who runs for congress or president, as those are controlled by party leaders who are - you guessed it - sponsored by "interest groups." Even at the local level, corporate governors are focused on district chairs (like Anne Wheeler in PW County, VA) to push through all manner of things like rezoning, tax credits etc... for "development." We're dealing with exactly this right now with Amazon pushing data centers into our farmland and depleting our Aquifer. [1] [0]https://publicintegrity.org/politics/state-politics/copy-paste-legislate/you-elected-them-to-write-new-laws-theyre-letting-corporations-do-it-instead/ https://publicintegrity.org/politics/state-politics/copy-pas... [1]https://protectpwc.org/ https://protectpwc.org/
- teitoklien 3y ago
  Politicians write government policies, corruption and a distracted public causes them to write bad policies People will always try to corrupt a powerful force like government. You can cry, shoot VC, destroy them, jail them, whatever, there will always be this VC class Politicians should be held accountable, they got the vote, they got the protection (police, bodyguards, secret service) If they betray people for money, then that means they write bad policians. In CCP, there are a ton more corrupt businessmen who’d love to write their gov’s policy in everything. Yet CCP successfully controls them, breaks them up, write pro consumer policy. And heck they are run by a dictator ! American politicians have no excuse to write bad policies, its those politicians who should be held accountable, VCs will always try to corrupt politicians, if not them, than foreign governments will happily pay up and take that spot. It’s not an excuse If a corrupt gov makes bad policies Then that’s it. It. Makes. Bad. Policies.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    The US is an "anarcho-capitalist" wasteland of domination that takes great amazing powerful innovations from talented people and uses them to oppress the least powerful underclasses. Always has always been I'm unaware of an example where this is not true. Every single major "innovation" came at the cost of some indigenous person's property or is exploiting a worker who is in crisis. In fact when US producers run out of people to exploit in the US, corporations pushed politicians to pass "treaties" such as NAFTA etc... to expand the pool of exploitable labor while ensuring the previous workers cannot compete.

poisonborz 3y ago

And megacorps surely haven't taken extreme measures to avoid those taxes, also lobbying the crap out of officials who avoid enforcing them in the first place to not lose cool points in ""the global tech race"". Weirdly the good example here is Russia and China where the state did not refrain from extreme measures to show the market whales their place.

te_chris 3y ago
China, maybe. But mafia state Russia??? Come on.