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I often see americans looking with envy at european health care, or europeans bragging about it. Well in the UK, and a lot of west european countries, health ca

I often see americans looking with envy at european health care, or europeans bragging about it. Well in the UK, and a lot of west european countries, health care is in a state of collapse. Just do a short google search of hospitals around the UK and rad their reviews - there are literal human rights abuses being reported, all while hospitals have an official government rating of "good". It's unbelievable - when I was in hospital I had patients next to me that had to beg to see a doctor, while a teenager was screaming in pain and nurses were mocking him. The UK doesn't have a financing problem, or a understaffing issue. The UK has an underskilling issue. Private or public the doctors and nurses I had to work with had no clue what they were doing, and there always had to be 3-4 people doing the job of one simply to confirm that what they are doing is right, and the issues working on were basic. Not to mention that health care software systems barely work - buggy, missing obvious features, not used at all because staff has no clue how to use it, and so on. All in all west european health care, particularily british, looks like east european health care used to - but indeed without the bribery and arrogance that plagued that system. At least not at the same level, yet. Not to mention that it is extremely expensive. You pay for public health care and on top of that for private health care without a tax deduction. So if you are a worker you are likely stuck waiting in long queues only to be sent home with a misdiagnosis. Your employer provided insurance will cover at most one or two visits to a GP per year and that's about it.

gmac 3y ago
YMMV here. I’m in and from the UK, and have family members who are hospital doctors. The NHS is indeed collapsing, but my understanding is that this is a combination of (1) underfunding, (2) Brexit, which caused many healthcare workers from the EU to leave the country, and (3) an incompetent, corrupt, far-right government that hates public services and would like us to move to a monstrously inequitable but profitable US-style system (but know they can’t say that out loud).
- _heimdall 3y ago
  > (1) underfunding In the context of comparing total government spending, that's a really important caveat. > (3) an incompetent, corrupt, far-right government that hates public services Isn't that a problem with a fully government-run system in general? Preferences and motivations in leadership change over time. If the people are dependent on the government program to function they're also at risk of being helpless if and when the government stops running the program well.
  - beej71 3y ago
    > Preferences and motivations in leadership change over time That is a risk. At least in the US you can be certain the consistent goal of the private healthcare system is to part you from your money. :)
    - _heimdall 3y ago
      Honestly its one benefit of a true open market, you know what the motivation is. Whether that's worth all the downsides it can cause, I'll leave that up to the reader to decide...
- gumballindie 3y ago
  Correct. And as a result of underfunding it's also underskilled. Not that those that have not yet left the system are not capable of performing, but rather those that are new are not the best - who would want to work in a system that underpays and overworks? Literarily all students I know studying medicine wish to stay away from the NHS and work in private health care. When speaking to foreign prospect students in my network I get the impression that studying in the UK is the running joke - both in pay prospects and tuition quality. I really really wish the british public would reflect more on understanding how corruption works, because "government that hates public services and would like us to move to a monstrously inequitable but profitable US-style system" is precisely that. Constantly demanding higher taxes to patch the system is one of the means the public is steered towards wanting it to be privatised, yet many fall for it. > Brexit, which caused many healthcare workers from the EU to leave the country Turns out european workers were not in demand because they were cheap, but because they had critical expertise. Allowing people to come in and work on equal terms and equal pay meant attracting the best and the brightest. Now the system attracts the desperate, willing to work for nothing and providing quality comensurate with pay. And this is reflected in all areas of life in the UK, private or public. The number of times I had to correct my lawier, solicitor, doctor, mechanic, plumber, and electrician, is ridiculous. Take this as a cry for change as I love this country.
stephen_g 3y ago
It’s true that the UK health care system is a disaster, but that’s through deliberate actions by politicians both conservative and “new” Labour (I.e. the faction of Labour that are basically just Tories but in the Labour Party for some reason). For example, instead of just publicly funding hospitals (you know how the Government can issue bonds at lower cost than private finance can borrow, before even thinking of profit margins) the Tories introduced Private Finance Initiative (PFI) schemes, which were then massively expanded by Blair, which up to 2017 (I think which is around when they finally stopped entering into new PFIs) the UK Government had paid private companies more than £308 billion for what amounted to £59 billion of actual capital investment. Many of these PFI schemes were wildly profitable for the companies, and the public have to pick up the pieces for the ones that fail. At the same time, care quality was often inadequate, even for the ones making profits. And that’s just one of the “privatisation by stealth” methods, there are a bunch of others (the NHS is too popular to overtly privatise).
bitcharmer 3y ago
I've lived in the UK for 10+ years. Had two surgeries, one life-saving visit on A&E and another one urgent medical intervention. That is on top of less serious medical stuff like dermatological issues or infections. This was all with NHS and I have the exact opposite experience. The staff were always very professional and friendly and the facilities well equipped.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  They are friendly and professional - unless you are a teenage boy that they can make fun of behind their back, or an old person that no one cares about. The issue is that the staff that looked after you was probably 2-3 times more than what should have been. My issue was also taken care of. So well that i will have to go private in a foreign country to fix the damage they did. At least i am alive and well. The smiles they gave were nice too. Seriously, google reviews of hospitals and read the horror stories. Old people with bowel loops kept on chairs in waiting rooms for 26 hours are my favourite. I know how bad it hurts because the friendly, smiling, professional staff nearly caused my such issues.

gmac 3y ago

YMMV here. I’m in and from the UK, and have family members who are hospital doctors. The NHS is indeed collapsing, but my understanding is that this is a combination of (1) underfunding, (2) Brexit, which caused many healthcare workers from the EU to leave the country, and (3) an incompetent, corrupt, far-right government that hates public services and would like us to move to a monstrously inequitable but profitable US-style system (but know they can’t say that out loud).

_heimdall 3y ago
> (1) underfunding In the context of comparing total government spending, that's a really important caveat. > (3) an incompetent, corrupt, far-right government that hates public services Isn't that a problem with a fully government-run system in general? Preferences and motivations in leadership change over time. If the people are dependent on the government program to function they're also at risk of being helpless if and when the government stops running the program well.
- beej71 3y ago
  > Preferences and motivations in leadership change over time That is a risk. At least in the US you can be certain the consistent goal of the private healthcare system is to part you from your money. :)
  - _heimdall 3y ago
    Honestly its one benefit of a true open market, you know what the motivation is. Whether that's worth all the downsides it can cause, I'll leave that up to the reader to decide...
gumballindie 3y ago
Correct. And as a result of underfunding it's also underskilled. Not that those that have not yet left the system are not capable of performing, but rather those that are new are not the best - who would want to work in a system that underpays and overworks? Literarily all students I know studying medicine wish to stay away from the NHS and work in private health care. When speaking to foreign prospect students in my network I get the impression that studying in the UK is the running joke - both in pay prospects and tuition quality. I really really wish the british public would reflect more on understanding how corruption works, because "government that hates public services and would like us to move to a monstrously inequitable but profitable US-style system" is precisely that. Constantly demanding higher taxes to patch the system is one of the means the public is steered towards wanting it to be privatised, yet many fall for it. > Brexit, which caused many healthcare workers from the EU to leave the country Turns out european workers were not in demand because they were cheap, but because they had critical expertise. Allowing people to come in and work on equal terms and equal pay meant attracting the best and the brightest. Now the system attracts the desperate, willing to work for nothing and providing quality comensurate with pay. And this is reflected in all areas of life in the UK, private or public. The number of times I had to correct my lawier, solicitor, doctor, mechanic, plumber, and electrician, is ridiculous. Take this as a cry for change as I love this country.

stephen_g 3y ago

It’s true that the UK health care system is a disaster, but that’s through deliberate actions by politicians both conservative and “new” Labour (I.e. the faction of Labour that are basically just Tories but in the Labour Party for some reason). For example, instead of just publicly funding hospitals (you know how the Government can issue bonds at lower cost than private finance can borrow, before even thinking of profit margins) the Tories introduced Private Finance Initiative (PFI) schemes, which were then massively expanded by Blair, which up to 2017 (I think which is around when they finally stopped entering into new PFIs) the UK Government had paid private companies more than £308 billion for what amounted to £59 billion of actual capital investment. Many of these PFI schemes were wildly profitable for the companies, and the public have to pick up the pieces for the ones that fail. At the same time, care quality was often inadequate, even for the ones making profits. And that’s just one of the “privatisation by stealth” methods, there are a bunch of others (the NHS is too popular to overtly privatise).

bitcharmer 3y ago

I've lived in the UK for 10+ years. Had two surgeries, one life-saving visit on A&E and another one urgent medical intervention. That is on top of less serious medical stuff like dermatological issues or infections. This was all with NHS and I have the exact opposite experience. The staff were always very professional and friendly and the facilities well equipped.

gumballindie 3y ago
They are friendly and professional - unless you are a teenage boy that they can make fun of behind their back, or an old person that no one cares about. The issue is that the staff that looked after you was probably 2-3 times more than what should have been. My issue was also taken care of. So well that i will have to go private in a foreign country to fix the damage they did. At least i am alive and well. The smiles they gave were nice too. Seriously, google reviews of hospitals and read the horror stories. Old people with bowel loops kept on chairs in waiting rooms for 26 hours are my favourite. I know how bad it hurts because the friendly, smiling, professional staff nearly caused my such issues.