5 ms·

It's incredible how mankind managed to achieve flight, something our ancestors could have only dreamed of for millions of years. We can shoot ourselves in tubes

by hbn 3y ago

It's incredible how mankind managed to achieve flight, something our ancestors could have only dreamed of for millions of years. We can shoot ourselves in tubes over oceans, all over the world, see more places, in a shorter amount of time, safer than ever before in history. And we got less than 100 years out of it before it got absolutely ruined by bureaucracy and politicians convincing everyone to pretend to be concerned about terrorism. I didn't even get to experience it when it was good because 9/11 happened when I was 4.

oh_sigh 3y ago
I can say that I have never heard of a single person not flying somewhere because of the TSA or other security ruined flying for them. Maybe it wasn't actually good and you're just blindly believing the nostalgia of older folks.
- digging 3y ago
  Those seem to be two different things though. But to you first point, I definitely fly less than I would if we got rid of TSA. They're a fucking nightmare in my city.
- reaperman 3y ago
  Oh I would absolutely fly more if the TSA process was less onerous. Hands down. But the entire airport process is so painful that it's just not worth it for a lot of things. Like Houston to New Orleans would 100% be a flight, but with the current security (and check-in process)...I just drive instead. It also regularly makes me reconsider flying longer distances and I choose leisure destinations/activities that are more drivable instead. This reduces my flying by a potential 4-8 round trip flights per year for me personally.
- deodar 3y ago
  Here's my anecdote. It was really good, as someone who flew pre 9/11. I remember reaching Logan airport 20 minutes before my scheduled flight in 2001 thanks to Boston's traffic. I walked to the gate unimpeded (nothing to check in). Zero stress. Part of it is also that flights used to be much less overbooked and the overall experience was better and this isn't just nostalgia. However I don't think it's completely fair to blame the TSA for the worsened experience. The threat model has changed since then. Add to that shrinking seats, worse customer service, more crowded airports, and the experience is much worse. A few years back, we decided to minimize air travel and take a lot more local vacations. Yes, we miss flying but at some point the hassle exceeded the desire to visit exotic locales.
  - shermantanktop 3y ago
    Europe, mid-1970s: Bader-Meinhof is in full swing; Palestinian, Armenian, and other groups were planting bombs. Plane hijacking was a new tactic with much news coverage. The modern age of assassination hysteria that started with JFK was still going. Did we fly like those nostalgic pics of businessmen and their wives smoking and eating steak? No, we stood like scared refugees, with heavily armed military personnel and German shepherds walking around scanning the crowd. I was a little kid in Zurich but remember it well. 9/11 may feel like a turning point in airport security, but it just brought to America what has been happening in other places at other times. And apparently made it permanent.
  - pixl97 3y ago
    Eh also add that most years number of people traveling by flight increases. 2009 and 2020-2021 were outliers. We're dealing with around 20% more fliers than 2000 but most major destination airports have not expanded in kind to deal with the additional traffic. Also add in housing incursion to most airports where development has got closer making it near impossible for current airports to expand.
  - chrismcb 3y ago
    There are lots of issues with flying. Fees galore, fewer amenities on the plane, smaller seats, etc. Yeah, you can't blame any of that on TSA. But having to arrive at the airport several hours before my flight, yeah I can blame that on TSA or it's equivalent counterpart in foreign countries. But what is worse is there is no obvious upside for TSA. It costs time and money with no apparent increase in safety. In fact the only time I'm unsafe is when I'm going through the security line. That is standing in a bottleneck next to barrels of suspected explosives and letting my bags out of my sight.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > I have never heard of a single person not flying somewhere because of the TSA or other security ruined flying for them. There have been quite a few flights I've not taken because of the security gauntlet. I really only fly when there is no other realistic option -- which means I that I only rarely do it recreationally anymore at all. Getting to the plane has become utterly horrible.
  - daedalus_j 3y ago
    It's really not that bad if you have GlobalEntry/TSA Pre. I've been through quite a few airports since getting it and never had an issue. Not as easy as when I was pound atd you could walk right up to the boarding gate to meet someone getting off a plane, but definitely not horrible or even challenging. However, that's with TSA Pre. I recently flew through Orlando and good gods that security line was a disaster. I'm an Abolish-the-TSA type, they do more harm than good, don't get me wrong, but if you want to fly just go get GlobalEntry, and everything is quite painless. (right up until you get to the gate and the airline starts screwing you, but that's a different problem.)
    - bradknowles 3y ago
      GlobalEntry only helps if you're flying international, and even then it only helps you once you land and everyone else is standing in the line at passport control. It doesn't do squat for you if you're staying in the same country.
      - chrismcb 3y ago
        Global entry gives you pre check.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > It's really not that bad if you have GlobalEntry/TSA Pre. Yes, that's what I hear. That's well beyond what I am willing to do, though.
- phd514 3y ago
  Maybe get out more? I know _lots_ of people for whom this is true and who take multi-day road trips rather than deal with air travel. I routinely flew for business before 9/11 and would typically show up about 15 minutes before boarding time at one of the three busiest airports in the US and typically got through security and would then had to wait 5-7 minutes before boarding would start. Air travel is radically different than it was pre-9/11.
solardev 3y ago
Is it that much worse? I was in my late teens by the time 9/11 happened. But I flew a lot both before and after that, and it still feels similar, except security is a bit worse (unless you have PreCheck and Global Entry, in which case it's actually quicker and easier than before). Once you're on the plane, the experience is mostly similar except you can't visit the cockpit and talk to the pilots anymore. Don't get me wrong, the service has also gotten a lot worse: less legroom, shittier food, fewer drinks/snacks, etc., at least in the USA. But that's more just capitalism and airlines being greedy than the government doing anything. It's also been my experience that American airlines are pretty bad across the board. The European and Asian ones are typically much nicer, and even their regional/budget airlines have very nice accommodations and check-in experiences compared to United, etc.
- chimeracoder 3y ago
  > except security is a bit worse (unless you have PreCheck and Global Entry, in which case it's actually quicker and easier than before). Security is worse everywhere, even if you have PreCheck. For starters, the rules for PreCheck are completely arbitrary and up to both the airport, terminal, and the whims of whoever is in charge that day. Even using the same checkpoint at the same terminal, sometimes you'll have to take your laptop out, sometimes you won't, sometimes you'll have to go through the scanner, sometimes you'll be able to use a metal detector, etc. Before 9/11, it was much more consistent (in large part because they didn't care about most of those things). In addition, the inability to take arbitrary liquids (and more recently powders) is a huge inconvenience that wasn't in place before 2006 (and 2018). > It's also been my experience that American airlines are pretty bad across the board. The European and Asian ones are typically much nicer, and even their regional/budget airlines have very nice accommodations and check-in experiences compared to United, etc. This is a common perception, but having flown a lot within Europe and Asia, I disagree with this. One reason people perceive this is because they're used to comparing European airlines on international routes (where they are often, but not always, better), and because of the geography. Many of the popular US domestic flights are coast-to-coast, which results in a six hour flight. There's nowhere in the EU where you'll get a six-hour domestic flight - LIS to HEL is only 4.5 hours, and that's about as long as you'll get[0]. If you fly, say, AMS-WAW or AMS-BER, even on KLM, you'll get pretty minimal service on a narrow body with no in-flight entertainment or WiFi. And that's considered acceptable because it's a pretty short flight. But it's not exactly a step up from what you'd get on a comparable length in the US. This isn't to excuse US airlines - as a frequent flyer, I'd really love better service on domestic flights. But it's an apples-to-oranges comparison: flights within the EU are shaped differently from flights within the US, and if you compare flights of similar lengths and similar levels of competition, the gap is pretty small. As for the regional/budget airline difference... I don't know if I'd agree with that either. Is Spirit really worse than Ryan Air? [0] You can stretch further by going as far as KEF, but at that point you're flying FI, and even though they've gotten a little better now that they have to compete on their international flight routes, I would not want to fly them for any long-haul flight if there's another option.
sarabande 3y ago
"Absolutely ruined"? We still get value from flight, just now trade wait time and privacy for security. It's clearly still worth it for the vast majority of the world, see global flight stats.
staplers 3y ago
> And we got less than 100 years out of it before it got absolutely ruined by bureaucracy Took the internet even less time to become a corporate strip mall.
- solardev 3y ago
  enshittification intensifies

by hbn 3y ago

oh_sigh 3y ago

I can say that I have never heard of a single person not flying somewhere because of the TSA or other security ruined flying for them. Maybe it wasn't actually good and you're just blindly believing the nostalgia of older folks.

digging 3y ago
Those seem to be two different things though. But to you first point, I definitely fly less than I would if we got rid of TSA. They're a fucking nightmare in my city.
reaperman 3y ago
Oh I would absolutely fly more if the TSA process was less onerous. Hands down. But the entire airport process is so painful that it's just not worth it for a lot of things. Like Houston to New Orleans would 100% be a flight, but with the current security (and check-in process)...I just drive instead. It also regularly makes me reconsider flying longer distances and I choose leisure destinations/activities that are more drivable instead. This reduces my flying by a potential 4-8 round trip flights per year for me personally.
deodar 3y ago
Here's my anecdote. It was really good, as someone who flew pre 9/11. I remember reaching Logan airport 20 minutes before my scheduled flight in 2001 thanks to Boston's traffic. I walked to the gate unimpeded (nothing to check in). Zero stress. Part of it is also that flights used to be much less overbooked and the overall experience was better and this isn't just nostalgia. However I don't think it's completely fair to blame the TSA for the worsened experience. The threat model has changed since then. Add to that shrinking seats, worse customer service, more crowded airports, and the experience is much worse. A few years back, we decided to minimize air travel and take a lot more local vacations. Yes, we miss flying but at some point the hassle exceeded the desire to visit exotic locales.
- shermantanktop 3y ago
  Europe, mid-1970s: Bader-Meinhof is in full swing; Palestinian, Armenian, and other groups were planting bombs. Plane hijacking was a new tactic with much news coverage. The modern age of assassination hysteria that started with JFK was still going. Did we fly like those nostalgic pics of businessmen and their wives smoking and eating steak? No, we stood like scared refugees, with heavily armed military personnel and German shepherds walking around scanning the crowd. I was a little kid in Zurich but remember it well. 9/11 may feel like a turning point in airport security, but it just brought to America what has been happening in other places at other times. And apparently made it permanent.
- pixl97 3y ago
  Eh also add that most years number of people traveling by flight increases. 2009 and 2020-2021 were outliers. We're dealing with around 20% more fliers than 2000 but most major destination airports have not expanded in kind to deal with the additional traffic. Also add in housing incursion to most airports where development has got closer making it near impossible for current airports to expand.
- chrismcb 3y ago
  There are lots of issues with flying. Fees galore, fewer amenities on the plane, smaller seats, etc. Yeah, you can't blame any of that on TSA. But having to arrive at the airport several hours before my flight, yeah I can blame that on TSA or it's equivalent counterpart in foreign countries. But what is worse is there is no obvious upside for TSA. It costs time and money with no apparent increase in safety. In fact the only time I'm unsafe is when I'm going through the security line. That is standing in a bottleneck next to barrels of suspected explosives and letting my bags out of my sight.
JohnFen 3y ago
> I have never heard of a single person not flying somewhere because of the TSA or other security ruined flying for them. There have been quite a few flights I've not taken because of the security gauntlet. I really only fly when there is no other realistic option -- which means I that I only rarely do it recreationally anymore at all. Getting to the plane has become utterly horrible.
- daedalus_j 3y ago
  It's really not that bad if you have GlobalEntry/TSA Pre. I've been through quite a few airports since getting it and never had an issue. Not as easy as when I was pound atd you could walk right up to the boarding gate to meet someone getting off a plane, but definitely not horrible or even challenging. However, that's with TSA Pre. I recently flew through Orlando and good gods that security line was a disaster. I'm an Abolish-the-TSA type, they do more harm than good, don't get me wrong, but if you want to fly just go get GlobalEntry, and everything is quite painless. (right up until you get to the gate and the airline starts screwing you, but that's a different problem.)
  - bradknowles 3y ago
    GlobalEntry only helps if you're flying international, and even then it only helps you once you land and everyone else is standing in the line at passport control. It doesn't do squat for you if you're staying in the same country.
    - chrismcb 3y ago
      Global entry gives you pre check.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > It's really not that bad if you have GlobalEntry/TSA Pre. Yes, that's what I hear. That's well beyond what I am willing to do, though.
phd514 3y ago
Maybe get out more? I know _lots_ of people for whom this is true and who take multi-day road trips rather than deal with air travel. I routinely flew for business before 9/11 and would typically show up about 15 minutes before boarding time at one of the three busiest airports in the US and typically got through security and would then had to wait 5-7 minutes before boarding would start. Air travel is radically different than it was pre-9/11.

solardev 3y ago

Is it that much worse? I was in my late teens by the time 9/11 happened. But I flew a lot both before and after that, and it still feels similar, except security is a bit worse (unless you have PreCheck and Global Entry, in which case it's actually quicker and easier than before). Once you're on the plane, the experience is mostly similar except you can't visit the cockpit and talk to the pilots anymore. Don't get me wrong, the service has also gotten a lot worse: less legroom, shittier food, fewer drinks/snacks, etc., at least in the USA. But that's more just capitalism and airlines being greedy than the government doing anything. It's also been my experience that American airlines are pretty bad across the board. The European and Asian ones are typically much nicer, and even their regional/budget airlines have very nice accommodations and check-in experiences compared to United, etc.

chimeracoder 3y ago
> except security is a bit worse (unless you have PreCheck and Global Entry, in which case it's actually quicker and easier than before). Security is worse everywhere, even if you have PreCheck. For starters, the rules for PreCheck are completely arbitrary and up to both the airport, terminal, and the whims of whoever is in charge that day. Even using the same checkpoint at the same terminal, sometimes you'll have to take your laptop out, sometimes you won't, sometimes you'll have to go through the scanner, sometimes you'll be able to use a metal detector, etc. Before 9/11, it was much more consistent (in large part because they didn't care about most of those things). In addition, the inability to take arbitrary liquids (and more recently powders) is a huge inconvenience that wasn't in place before 2006 (and 2018). > It's also been my experience that American airlines are pretty bad across the board. The European and Asian ones are typically much nicer, and even their regional/budget airlines have very nice accommodations and check-in experiences compared to United, etc. This is a common perception, but having flown a lot within Europe and Asia, I disagree with this. One reason people perceive this is because they're used to comparing European airlines on international routes (where they are often, but not always, better), and because of the geography. Many of the popular US domestic flights are coast-to-coast, which results in a six hour flight. There's nowhere in the EU where you'll get a six-hour domestic flight - LIS to HEL is only 4.5 hours, and that's about as long as you'll get[0]. If you fly, say, AMS-WAW or AMS-BER, even on KLM, you'll get pretty minimal service on a narrow body with no in-flight entertainment or WiFi. And that's considered acceptable because it's a pretty short flight. But it's not exactly a step up from what you'd get on a comparable length in the US. This isn't to excuse US airlines - as a frequent flyer, I'd really love better service on domestic flights. But it's an apples-to-oranges comparison: flights within the EU are shaped differently from flights within the US, and if you compare flights of similar lengths and similar levels of competition, the gap is pretty small. As for the regional/budget airline difference... I don't know if I'd agree with that either. Is Spirit really worse than Ryan Air? [0] You can stretch further by going as far as KEF, but at that point you're flying FI, and even though they've gotten a little better now that they have to compete on their international flight routes, I would not want to fly them for any long-haul flight if there's another option.

sarabande 3y ago

"Absolutely ruined"? We still get value from flight, just now trade wait time and privacy for security. It's clearly still worth it for the vast majority of the world, see global flight stats.

staplers 3y ago

> And we got less than 100 years out of it before it got absolutely ruined by bureaucracy Took the internet even less time to become a corporate strip mall.

solardev 3y ago
enshittification intensifies