4 ms·

As the article says, it's nice to have something to latch on to. But the article says that reconditioning doesn't work. What the hell am I supposed to do? I've

As the article says, it's nice to have something to latch on to. But the article says that reconditioning doesn't work. What the hell am I supposed to do? I've been working out like crazy for the last year. My strength is up, my total endurance is up, but my stamina almost hasn't moved. I feel winded and oxygen starved only a couple reps later than when I originally started. Am I supposed to just accept that I'm permanently disabled? Anybody here have any experience or reading for me?

alfonsodev 3y ago
I'm not a doctor, so I just can say my anecdotal experience, take it like grain of salt. - Measure Vo2 max, and try to improve it monitoring it, there are some things that just work better for vo2 max, like HIT, and specific protocol of max intensity and rest, for example 4 min intensity followed by 4 rest, 4 times is one of them. Better explained at this Rhonda Patrick's video [1] - Additionally I notice a big improvement when doing hikes in high altitude, I did vomit few hours after coming down from Teide mountain, hiked from tele-spheric station up to 3200mts. I think I over did it for my fitness level, and didn't protect from sun properly, but after recovering I could feel a big improvement in my usual walks, and Apple Watch showed and increment of Vo2 bigger than usual. - Also this is more specific, and probably does not apply to you, but check your hormones. Because lack of sleep and stress, I had ACTH, Estradiol, Prolactin and Homa-IR out of whack, was nearly developing type 2 diabetes, fixing this made losing weight so much easier, and gym sessions way less tiring. - [1] https://youtu.be/IxYdkMmtjBs?si=NbSBryghetTA5LE4 https://youtu.be/IxYdkMmtjBs?si=NbSBryghetTA5LE4
- andreareina 3y ago
  Per there article the tissues are not uptaking the oxygen that is present. In healthy people VO2max is primarily limited by supply not utilisation; increasing the oxygen supply (this is what VO2max protocols aim to do) is barking up the wrong tree.
  - alfonsodev 3y ago
    Thanks, that helps understanding it better. I guess what I'm trying to say to the commenter, is that it would be useful to measure those things (assuming they didn't) before thinking it falls into the category of those people in the study. The markers I mentioned are very easy to obtain, at least VO2max, and both cases can be reverted if the right specific type of training/intervention. I went from 30 to 38,7 Vo2 max in 10 months but I could only do it after fixing hormones, before training wasn't effective for me, and I even tried 20K steps day, without success. After hormones fixed, just 15k steps/day would increase slowly but steady my VO2 max.
  - cpncrunch 3y ago
    Its just one article, and a poor one at that. I would put much stock on it.
steve_adams_86 3y ago
I had the same experience coming out of a serious bout with pneumonia in 2016. I haven't improved much at all. I often wonder if covid does the same thing to people. The chronic issues with energy line up pretty much perfectly.
- jerkstate 3y ago
  I get the sense that covid is “where the light is” in terms of the search for after-effects of sickness - I had a non-covid cold (at least several at home 15 minute tests were negative) in 2022 that had long symptoms, my sinuses and ear canals still feel different than before. It may be that covid does unique physiological damage, but it could also be that most severe sicknesses do some sort of permanent damage. I wonder how much of this is unique to covid, is my point.
  - Llamamoe 3y ago
    Blood vessel/nerve damage is likely specific to COVID, the more general energy utilisation disorders seemingly aren't, and are triggered by any kind of ongoing inflammation, and often seem to last after any sufficiently severe immune events, though it's possible that this is related to e.g. herpesviral reactivation.
    - garganzol 3y ago
      Energy utilization disorders inevitably cause nerve damage if left untreated. It can be a slow process, it can be fast, but the end result is nerve and tissue damage leading to a plethora of symptoms and secondary diseases.
      - Llamamoe 3y ago
        Nerve damage does not necessarily mean irreversible consequences, depending on the degree. E.g. any amount of sleep deprivation, both in terms of quantity and quality, causes (minuscule) brain damage, but even people with severe sleep apnea mostly recover with treatment. Likewise, PDE5 inhibitors and presumably other med classes seem capable of nearly reversing mild-to-moderate nerve damage through local NGF release secondary to improved endothelial function and nerve blood supply.
doix 3y ago
> I feel winded and oxygen starved only a couple reps later than when I originally started. Isn't that a pretty good improvement? I was really happy when I went from 1 rep at 90% of my max to 3 reps. It took me a fairly long time and this was before COVID. Or perhaps I use a different definition of stamina? Regardless, the fact that there was an improvement shows that it can get better? Keep at it. If you've got the resources, a good PT might be able to help. Not one of those grifters that did a 3 week course, but someone with an actual understanding of sports science.
- SuperNinKenDo 3y ago
  Yeah, I think we're thibking about this differently. I train high reps, like really high reps, in no small part for the exact reason that I run out of stamina really quickly and want to improve it. Also because I don't have money for gym or equipment, so many of my exercises are body-weight. I somewhat agree though, albeit with a sense of resignation rather than reassurance, that some improvement offers some hope that continuing will yield further improvement. PT is out of the question for now given the financials. We'll see in the future. Thanks for trying to encourage me though.
Llamamoe 3y ago
I'm not sure why this is only clicking for me now, as a person with chronic fatigue who always, invariably, gets really winded by about 300m no matter how regularly or how much I jog, and finds any strength exercise to be incredibly aversive after very similar amounts of exertion regardless of all other variables... agh.
thenerdhead 3y ago
I have long Covid. I am in the best shape of my life but sometimes have stamina issues. All I can say is that as I would take supplements that target mitochondrial function, I’d notice that to increase. I believe the root cause is viral persistence and will require monoclonal antibodies, antivirals, and synbiotics to repair. Just taking synbiotics recently has slowly been increasing my alertness and lowering my fatigue levels. Look up SIM01 clinical trial.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

alfonsodev 3y ago

I'm not a doctor, so I just can say my anecdotal experience, take it like grain of salt. - Measure Vo2 max, and try to improve it monitoring it, there are some things that just work better for vo2 max, like HIT, and specific protocol of max intensity and rest, for example 4 min intensity followed by 4 rest, 4 times is one of them. Better explained at this Rhonda Patrick's video [1] - Additionally I notice a big improvement when doing hikes in high altitude, I did vomit few hours after coming down from Teide mountain, hiked from tele-spheric station up to 3200mts. I think I over did it for my fitness level, and didn't protect from sun properly, but after recovering I could feel a big improvement in my usual walks, and Apple Watch showed and increment of Vo2 bigger than usual. - Also this is more specific, and probably does not apply to you, but check your hormones. Because lack of sleep and stress, I had ACTH, Estradiol, Prolactin and Homa-IR out of whack, was nearly developing type 2 diabetes, fixing this made losing weight so much easier, and gym sessions way less tiring. - [1] https://youtu.be/IxYdkMmtjBs?si=NbSBryghetTA5LE4 https://youtu.be/IxYdkMmtjBs?si=NbSBryghetTA5LE4

andreareina 3y ago
Per there article the tissues are not uptaking the oxygen that is present. In healthy people VO2max is primarily limited by supply not utilisation; increasing the oxygen supply (this is what VO2max protocols aim to do) is barking up the wrong tree.
- alfonsodev 3y ago
  Thanks, that helps understanding it better. I guess what I'm trying to say to the commenter, is that it would be useful to measure those things (assuming they didn't) before thinking it falls into the category of those people in the study. The markers I mentioned are very easy to obtain, at least VO2max, and both cases can be reverted if the right specific type of training/intervention. I went from 30 to 38,7 Vo2 max in 10 months but I could only do it after fixing hormones, before training wasn't effective for me, and I even tried 20K steps day, without success. After hormones fixed, just 15k steps/day would increase slowly but steady my VO2 max.
- cpncrunch 3y ago
  Its just one article, and a poor one at that. I would put much stock on it.

steve_adams_86 3y ago

I had the same experience coming out of a serious bout with pneumonia in 2016. I haven't improved much at all. I often wonder if covid does the same thing to people. The chronic issues with energy line up pretty much perfectly.

jerkstate 3y ago
I get the sense that covid is “where the light is” in terms of the search for after-effects of sickness - I had a non-covid cold (at least several at home 15 minute tests were negative) in 2022 that had long symptoms, my sinuses and ear canals still feel different than before. It may be that covid does unique physiological damage, but it could also be that most severe sicknesses do some sort of permanent damage. I wonder how much of this is unique to covid, is my point.
- Llamamoe 3y ago
  Blood vessel/nerve damage is likely specific to COVID, the more general energy utilisation disorders seemingly aren't, and are triggered by any kind of ongoing inflammation, and often seem to last after any sufficiently severe immune events, though it's possible that this is related to e.g. herpesviral reactivation.
  - garganzol 3y ago
    Energy utilization disorders inevitably cause nerve damage if left untreated. It can be a slow process, it can be fast, but the end result is nerve and tissue damage leading to a plethora of symptoms and secondary diseases.
    - Llamamoe 3y ago
      Nerve damage does not necessarily mean irreversible consequences, depending on the degree. E.g. any amount of sleep deprivation, both in terms of quantity and quality, causes (minuscule) brain damage, but even people with severe sleep apnea mostly recover with treatment. Likewise, PDE5 inhibitors and presumably other med classes seem capable of nearly reversing mild-to-moderate nerve damage through local NGF release secondary to improved endothelial function and nerve blood supply.

doix 3y ago

> I feel winded and oxygen starved only a couple reps later than when I originally started. Isn't that a pretty good improvement? I was really happy when I went from 1 rep at 90% of my max to 3 reps. It took me a fairly long time and this was before COVID. Or perhaps I use a different definition of stamina? Regardless, the fact that there was an improvement shows that it can get better? Keep at it. If you've got the resources, a good PT might be able to help. Not one of those grifters that did a 3 week course, but someone with an actual understanding of sports science.

SuperNinKenDo 3y ago
Yeah, I think we're thibking about this differently. I train high reps, like really high reps, in no small part for the exact reason that I run out of stamina really quickly and want to improve it. Also because I don't have money for gym or equipment, so many of my exercises are body-weight. I somewhat agree though, albeit with a sense of resignation rather than reassurance, that some improvement offers some hope that continuing will yield further improvement. PT is out of the question for now given the financials. We'll see in the future. Thanks for trying to encourage me though.

Llamamoe 3y ago

I'm not sure why this is only clicking for me now, as a person with chronic fatigue who always, invariably, gets really winded by about 300m no matter how regularly or how much I jog, and finds any strength exercise to be incredibly aversive after very similar amounts of exertion regardless of all other variables... agh.

thenerdhead 3y ago

I have long Covid. I am in the best shape of my life but sometimes have stamina issues. All I can say is that as I would take supplements that target mitochondrial function, I’d notice that to increase. I believe the root cause is viral persistence and will require monoclonal antibodies, antivirals, and synbiotics to repair. Just taking synbiotics recently has slowly been increasing my alertness and lowering my fatigue levels. Look up SIM01 clinical trial.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]