11 ms·

If the IRS had discovered the quadratic formula...

110 points by evoxed 15y ago

zht 15y ago
it amazed me the first time that I filed for US taxes that it involved the use of a look up table
- drostie 15y ago
  Well, that can to some extent be expected -- trying to describe a progressive taxation algorithm can be much more messy than just saying, "here, look it up." There are much more important WTFs. For example, there are two different tax rates which you might be paying -- one for capital gains and certain dividends, and one for income. The first is always taxed at a lower rate. Meanwhile, you have a "deduction" -- an amount of money that you're allowed to deduct from your return as if you'd never gotten it in the first place. The IRS forms actually implement a worksheet which just says, "subtract your deduction from your income, and if your deduction is larger than your income, subtract whatever else there is from your capital gains." At least, I think that's what it does. As this article shows, you have no conscious idea what the heck you're really doing when the IRS invites you to play Turing Machine.
  - chris_wot 15y ago
    I want to be part of a wonderful government system that gives me a tax deduction that is greater than my income! Actually, on second thoughts, I can't speak Greek so I think I'll pass.
    - drostie 15y ago
      Oh, that's easy. Just don't make more than a couple thousand dollars, then your standard deduction in the US system will be greater than your income. ^_^ (Of course, the IRS doesn't actually let their forms go negative.)
      - chris_wot 15y ago
        I have not been acquainted with the American tax system - I live in Australia, which has its own system with its own quirks. What is a standard deduction? It sounds like you get an amount of money back no matter what you paid. Is this true?
        signalsignal 15y ago
        Yes. The IRS is in the money refunding business.
        billybob 15y ago
        What absolutely makes me want to scream is that, if you pay too much and get some money refunded, they consider that refund income and they tax you on it the next year. It's NOT INCOME. It was already my money. If anything, I should get it back with interest, since they had it for a while.
        smoyer 15y ago
        This is not true for money refunded by the Feds ... But if you deducted the full amount of state or local taxes previously, then you didn't pay taxes on those and a refund is indeed income. It's as easy easy as (not pie) flying with wax and feather wings.
        _delirium 15y ago
        Federal tax refunds are not income. Does the IRS send you a W-2 or 1099 for them? Are you writing them in under "other income" or something? Unless you're doing something seriously weird, they aren't income, aren't reported anywhere as income, and aren't taxable. For state/local taxes, as smoyer points out, if you erroneously deducted a larger amount of state taxes than you actually owe, then, when you get the difference back, you have to correct that on the next year's form, if you had claimed the larger amount as a deduction. If that weren't the case, you could game the system by purposely having your state taxes massively over-withheld, deducting the inflated amount from your federal taxes, then receiving a state tax refund.
    - poorpointofview 15y ago
      Just become a big corporation in the US and you can do it!
  - dalke 15y ago
    I always thought I was playing more like a pushdown automata than a Turing machine. :)
kijin 15y ago
Whether you like them or not, a lot of thought went into designing tax forms. It's a marvel of form design that any intelligent person with a pocket calculator can fill them out by following simple directions. It could have been much much worse, considering how complicated tax codes tend to be! Of course, things get complicated when you have different kinds of incomes with different rates and all sorts of deductions with different rules that Congress cooks up every year. But that's what computer programs are for. I hope they'll make bug-free and intuitive tax programs some day. In the meantime, I like Canadian tax forms better. Federal and provincial forms come in different colours, and the boxes seem to be more clearly labeled.
- sausagefeet 15y ago
  In Sweden you can pay your taxes with an SMS. Basically, from what I understand, the taxes are so simple and the infrastructure already there for the govt to know your income that unless you are doing something funky you just confirm you taxes by sending a text. Quite nice.
  - qw 15y ago
    In Norway you don't need to confirm the taxes at all. You get a simple tax form on a web page and if the information is correct you don't need to do anything. If you need to correct it you just update the form online.
    - kijin 15y ago
      That approach might have disadvantages, especially with senior citizens and poor people who might not have ready access to the Internet. They are the ones who usually miss out when essential services go online-only. But then again, we're talking about Scandinavia here, so the size of the affected population and the severity of the problem would be a lot less than in the U.S.
      - sausagefeet 15y ago
        Poor people in Norway? Surely you jest!
waterside81 15y ago
To get an even better picture of the internals of the IRS, highly recommend reading The Pale King by David Foster Wallace. It's an unfinished book (he committed suicide before completing it) but details his real-life journey to becoming an IRS employee.

110 points by evoxed 15y ago

zht 15y ago

it amazed me the first time that I filed for US taxes that it involved the use of a look up table

drostie 15y ago
Well, that can to some extent be expected -- trying to describe a progressive taxation algorithm can be much more messy than just saying, "here, look it up." There are much more important WTFs. For example, there are two different tax rates which you might be paying -- one for capital gains and certain dividends, and one for income. The first is always taxed at a lower rate. Meanwhile, you have a "deduction" -- an amount of money that you're allowed to deduct from your return as if you'd never gotten it in the first place. The IRS forms actually implement a worksheet which just says, "subtract your deduction from your income, and if your deduction is larger than your income, subtract whatever else there is from your capital gains." At least, I think that's what it does. As this article shows, you have no conscious idea what the heck you're really doing when the IRS invites you to play Turing Machine.
- chris_wot 15y ago
  I want to be part of a wonderful government system that gives me a tax deduction that is greater than my income! Actually, on second thoughts, I can't speak Greek so I think I'll pass.
  - drostie 15y ago
    Oh, that's easy. Just don't make more than a couple thousand dollars, then your standard deduction in the US system will be greater than your income. ^_^ (Of course, the IRS doesn't actually let their forms go negative.)
    - chris_wot 15y ago
      I have not been acquainted with the American tax system - I live in Australia, which has its own system with its own quirks. What is a standard deduction? It sounds like you get an amount of money back no matter what you paid. Is this true?
      - signalsignal 15y ago
        Yes. The IRS is in the money refunding business.
        billybob 15y ago
        What absolutely makes me want to scream is that, if you pay too much and get some money refunded, they consider that refund income and they tax you on it the next year. It's NOT INCOME. It was already my money. If anything, I should get it back with interest, since they had it for a while.
        smoyer 15y ago
        This is not true for money refunded by the Feds ... But if you deducted the full amount of state or local taxes previously, then you didn't pay taxes on those and a refund is indeed income. It's as easy easy as (not pie) flying with wax and feather wings.
        _delirium 15y ago
        Federal tax refunds are not income. Does the IRS send you a W-2 or 1099 for them? Are you writing them in under "other income" or something? Unless you're doing something seriously weird, they aren't income, aren't reported anywhere as income, and aren't taxable. For state/local taxes, as smoyer points out, if you erroneously deducted a larger amount of state taxes than you actually owe, then, when you get the difference back, you have to correct that on the next year's form, if you had claimed the larger amount as a deduction. If that weren't the case, you could game the system by purposely having your state taxes massively over-withheld, deducting the inflated amount from your federal taxes, then receiving a state tax refund.
  - poorpointofview 15y ago
    Just become a big corporation in the US and you can do it!
- dalke 15y ago
  I always thought I was playing more like a pushdown automata than a Turing machine. :)

kijin 15y ago

Whether you like them or not, a lot of thought went into designing tax forms. It's a marvel of form design that any intelligent person with a pocket calculator can fill them out by following simple directions. It could have been much much worse, considering how complicated tax codes tend to be! Of course, things get complicated when you have different kinds of incomes with different rates and all sorts of deductions with different rules that Congress cooks up every year. But that's what computer programs are for. I hope they'll make bug-free and intuitive tax programs some day. In the meantime, I like Canadian tax forms better. Federal and provincial forms come in different colours, and the boxes seem to be more clearly labeled.

sausagefeet 15y ago
In Sweden you can pay your taxes with an SMS. Basically, from what I understand, the taxes are so simple and the infrastructure already there for the govt to know your income that unless you are doing something funky you just confirm you taxes by sending a text. Quite nice.
- qw 15y ago
  In Norway you don't need to confirm the taxes at all. You get a simple tax form on a web page and if the information is correct you don't need to do anything. If you need to correct it you just update the form online.
  - kijin 15y ago
    That approach might have disadvantages, especially with senior citizens and poor people who might not have ready access to the Internet. They are the ones who usually miss out when essential services go online-only. But then again, we're talking about Scandinavia here, so the size of the affected population and the severity of the problem would be a lot less than in the U.S.
    - sausagefeet 15y ago
      Poor people in Norway? Surely you jest!

waterside81 15y ago

To get an even better picture of the internals of the IRS, highly recommend reading The Pale King by David Foster Wallace. It's an unfinished book (he committed suicide before completing it) but details his real-life journey to becoming an IRS employee.