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So there is actually a technical reason here. NACS isn't a thing in Europe because 3 Phase power is much more common in Europe. NACS does not support 3 Phase po
by SEJeff 3y ago
So there is actually a technical reason here. NACS isn't a thing in Europe because 3 Phase power is much more common in Europe. NACS does not support 3 Phase power, and as a result, is not that common in Europe.
- bluGill 3y ago3 phase is very common in the US. Most single family houses don't have it, everything else is likely to have it. For chargers 3 phase gains nothing. For induction motors 3 phase is useful - but in the modern world even where you have 3 phase you often will run the power through a VFC just so you get control of RPM. For a few other things 3 phase is nice because there is always one phase that isn't near zero to draw power from, but where that matters you can work around it with a few capacitors.
- jankeymeulen 3y ago3 phase typically has 400V between the phases and neutral in Europe, the phases don't gain you anything, but the voltage does.
- phs2501 3y agoPretty sure residential 3-phase in Europe is 400V phase-to-phase, it's 220V phase-to-neutral.
- qayxc 3y agomake that 230V (min.) or rather 240V (nominal).
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago230V nominal in EU
- qayxc 3y agoYou're right, though tolerances allow for up 253V since 2009. I usually measure between 235V and 242V from the wall.
- dotancohen 3y agoIt's 220/240 volt RMS to neutral, which is about 312 volt maximum to neutral at the top of the phase.
- bluGill 3y agoVoltage is solely a matter of how the transformer is wound. In the US you get a choice when you contact the power company, 208, 240, 440, and 480 are all voltages I've personally seen in the US, depending on the area (not all utilities will provide all voltages, so there are some I haven't seen)
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago3 phases give you three times amount the power as 1-phase with only 4 wires (instead of 2 in a single phase, or 3x the thickness).
- SEJeff 3y agoThe NACS standard still only supports single phase power. It was the electrician who installed my home charger that said it is why they weren't in Europe homes.
- gabrielhidasy 3y agoNACS supports either one or two phases for AC charging which would be used in most home chargers. A really high power charger would use DC with the AC/DC conversion happening before (and that could be from a three-phase source)
- ianburrell 3y agoWhat the US has is split phase power, when one phase is 240V and that is split to make two 120V legs. NACS supports single phase power, either 120V (Level 1) or 240V (Level 2). There is no such thing as two-phase power, there is single-phase or three-phase. Since three-phase is better than two-phase.
- tempestn 3y agoYou can look at it either way. "Phase" literally means the offset of the waveforms. With 3-phase, each of the phases is 120° out of sync. With split phase, you can look at it as a single, 240V phase with neutral in the middle, allowing it to be split into two 120V halves. Or you could look at it as two 120V phases, 180° out of sync, such that the difference between them is therefore 240V.
- masklinn 3y ago> NACS supports either one or two phases for AC charging which would be used in most home chargers. Lots of european homes have 3-phase service. I have 3-phase 400V in my flat.
- stephen_g 3y agoTheoretically perhaps, but practically, most single phase AC EV chargers on Europe/Australia etc. are only 7 kW but 3-phase are 11 or 22 kW (both 7 kW and 22 kW are about 30 A per phase, but three phase you obviously have three of them, so three times the power!). That’s not “gaining nothing”!
- bluGill 3y agoWhile sometimes you get more power on 3 phase, that is only about the size of the feed and nothing to do with 3 phase.
- ajsnigrutin 3y agoBut you have three feeds giving you three phases to use, so 3x the power available to you. Out here, even electric stoves (with ovens) have 3 phase connection options and tankless water heaters almost exclusively come as 3 phase models.
- bluGill 3y agoPower is volts times amps. 3 phase just means you add the power of all three phases, but you can get the same power from one phase with a little algebra. You need different size wires and breakers, but there is nothing there that 3 phases gives you.
- ajsnigrutin 3y agoLet's say you have a cable with 2.5mm^2 wires, each of which can carry 20A of current to stay within code. At 230V that's 4600W. Now you want more power, to keep the math simple, let's say 13800W (3x the power above). With a one phase system, for 3x the power, you need 3x the size of wire, so 7.5mm^2, ie. 3x the amount of copper (since all wires, neutral and PE have to be that size too). With a three phase system, you can get the same power with 3x2.5mm^2 live wires (+1 neutral + 1 PE), so instead of 3x the amount of copper, you only need 5/3's of copper to get 3x the power.
- CorrectHorseBat 3y ago3 phases give you 3x the power for only 2x the amount of copper
- gabrielhidasy 3y agoAnd two phases give you 2x the power for the same copper.
- foobarian 3y agoI'm guessing the calculation would be based the other way, i.e. whether there is an installed base or not. If you have a 3-phase source, not using all the phases would limit total power delivery needlessly. So most European residences will want 3-phase charging.
- ajsnigrutin 3y agoOn the other hand, there are A LOT more volkswagens and audis in europe (and even some porsches) than teslas. Add seat, opel and škoda to this, and the number is even higher.
- chrisjc 3y agoWhile that is true to some extent, it's a very dynamic situation/market. https://electrek.co/2023/12/19/audi-puts-big-ev-push-on-the-back-burner/ https://electrek.co/2023/12/19/audi-puts-big-ev-push-on-the-... https://electrek.co/2023/11/16/volkswagens-ev-woes-worsen-over-slowing-demand/ https://electrek.co/2023/11/16/volkswagens-ev-woes-worsen-ov... VW owns Audi, Seat and Skoda. (On a side-note, I own a VW EV and love it)
- masklinn 3y agoThe main reason is not technical, it's that the EU mandated CCS2 back in 2013. From then on, Tesla's plug became irrelevant, chargers must have CCS2.