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> Volkswagen Group, which also owns Audi, Porsche, and Scout Motors, is finally doing what nearly every other automaker has already done: announce its intention

> Volkswagen Group, which also owns Audi, Porsche, and Scout Motors, is finally doing what nearly every other automaker has already done: announce its intention to adopt Tesla’s electric vehicle charging standard. The reporting around this has been so poor. NACS is CCS with Tesla's plug on the end. What's happening is that CCS has won the EV charging protocol wars, Tesla's plug is being standardized as CCS type 3 (aka SAE J3400), and Tesla's chargers will use the CCS protocol (like they already do in Europe and elsewhere). To use NACS chargers older Teslas will need a CCS retrofit: https://electrek.co/2023/02/28/tesla-ccs-adapter-retrofit-price/ https://electrek.co/2023/02/28/tesla-ccs-adapter-retrofit-pr...

valine 3y ago
When people talk about standardizing the charge port they’re talking about the shape of the port not the protocol. Tesla has supported the CCS protocol for years now. The Tesla port is vastly superior to the CCS type 1 port. They should get credit for making it an open standard.
- clouddrover 3y ago
  Yes, people aren't aware of what's happening. That's a consequence of lazy reporting. Tesla's charging standard is being dropped and CCS will be used by everyone. It's a shame North America still has years of plug incompatibilities and adapter fiddling to look forward to. Europe really got EV charging standardization right. The European EV infrastructure is much further advanced than the North American infrastructure thanks in part to sensible standardization.
  - SEJeff 3y ago
    > It's a shame North America still has years of plug incompatibilities and adapter fiddling Not really, Tesla has over 24k charging stalls in the US. The second biggest is Electrify America, and they have only 3,800 charging stalls. There really aren't a lot of EV chargers that are non-tesla in the US, unlike the EU.
    - clouddrover 3y ago
      There are 7,869 locations and 15,661 CCS ports in the US and Canada (versus 2,297 locations and 25,247 Tesla ports): https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html It's plugs on chargers and inlets on cars. It'll be a slow and tedious process.
      - _ea1k 3y ago
        TBH, the afdc data badly overstates the number of available locations. Not only do they include a lot of broken or otherwise inaccessible locations, but they include things like this: https://www.plugshare.com/location/1564 https://www.plugshare.com/location/1564 I think that currently holds the record for the slowest DCFC in the country. :)
        SEJeff 3y ago
        > max 13A, 4kW Wow! You'd get a better charge from a standard 15A 110V AC plug.
        jaguar1878 3y ago
        No, you want to compare Watts, not Volts, as Watts measures power and Volts is just potential. A 15A 110V outlet can supply 1500W continuous (1.5kW). A 4kW DC charger is almost three times higher power than this.
      - SEJeff 3y ago
        I didn’t include the crappy L2 destination chargers, of which there are a whole lot more of that support teslas. I was referring to the L3 superchargers / fast chargers or equivalent. The majority of the ones you linked are L2 chargers are are not that useful outside of destination charging.
        clouddrover 3y ago
        That is DC fast chargers. If you include J1772 AC chargers in the count the numbers are 66,093 locations and 146,206 ports.
  - maxdo 3y ago
    Stop misleading people. The opposite is happening. Tesla is opening their network to other brands. Ford and a few other car makers have already agreed. In new cars made from 2025, you can go to the only properly working charging network, plug in the car, and leave with no credit card hustle. Basically, like Tesla had forever. It's a shame other brands didn't adopt a much better Tesla adapter as a standard. It's much more convenient and light. I've seen how adapters work; they work badly and are glitchy. So, if someone buys a car with an old port in 2024, they will start to see lots of pain in 2025.
    - clouddrover 3y ago
      > Tesla is opening their network to other brands. By implementing CCS. How do you think it works in Europe right now? They all use CCS, both cars and chargers. Tesla included.
      - maxdo 3y ago
        NACS is protocol agnostic. Cars in Europe have different plugs. Tesla will use their protocol and support CCS on chargers. What Tesla offers to other brands in North America is much more advanced. New cars will be able to see on the map how many stalls are available etc. Payments integration etc. It's a far more deeper integration and I guess that's the real big deal that needs to be standardized. Tesla got the best-in-class charging experience, and finally, in 1 year, other brands can have somewhat matching capabilities.
        clouddrover 3y ago
        > NACS is protocol agnostic. Yes, it's just a plug on the end of a CCS charger. > What Tesla offers to other brands in North America is much more advanced. They're offering CCS. It's how it works whether you like it or not.
    - _ea1k 3y ago
      I'm not sure what you mean w/r/t the adapters. It sounds like most manufacturers will just use Tesla supplied adapters. I doubt they will be very bulky. They might even be easier to use than native CCS1. :)
- kwhitefoot 3y ago
  No one is installing CCS1 any more surely?
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    I think they will keep installing them for another few years. NEVI requires it and there are still quite a few CCS1 cars on the road. All of the cars that are switching will still ship with the CCS1 port next year too. They don't fully switch until 2025.
  - valine 3y ago
    CCS1 is still dominate in North America. CCS2 only got traction in Europe.
maxdo 3y ago
It's the opposite. Every single EV car that is sold right now in North America except Tesla will need a retrofit. Read the article you shared. It's for use on other charging stations. In the picture, you see a dead charger adapter converted into a new Tesla standard one. It's a major pain for other brand EV owners In 1 year, almost at every charging station, you will have to deal with plugging converters in snow, rain, etc, making sure communication works.
- clouddrover 3y ago
  > Every single EV car that is sold right now in North America except Tesla will need a retrofit. No, they won't need a new ECU because they are already CCS cars. They'll need a dumb adapter if they can't get a new inlet installed.
  - amluto 3y ago
    I expect a degree of intelligence to be important in the adapter. Specifically, unless the adapter is rated for the highest possible current and voltage that the physical form factor can support (1kV, 600A? Is there even a pre-ordained limit? Tesla reports that they’ve tested NACS up to quite impressive voltages and currents.), then the adapter needs to tell the car and/or charger to limit voltage and current. Otherwise it risks arcing and/or overheating. Also, whatever water cooling magic keeps the charger plug and its terminals cool won’t cool the adapter. Even the little charge-a-J1772-car-off-a-Tesla-level-2-charger hack adapters are generally dumb adapters designed for 40A or so and are not safe if connected to a full-spec 80A EVSE.
    - Rebelgecko 3y ago
      Isn't that negotiation already part of the CCS protocol? Otherwise 400v cars would be fried when they end up getting 800v from an L3 charger, or a Bolt would end up getting 300kW that it can't actually use
      - amluto 3y ago

valine 3y ago

When people talk about standardizing the charge port they’re talking about the shape of the port not the protocol. Tesla has supported the CCS protocol for years now. The Tesla port is vastly superior to the CCS type 1 port. They should get credit for making it an open standard.

clouddrover 3y ago
Yes, people aren't aware of what's happening. That's a consequence of lazy reporting. Tesla's charging standard is being dropped and CCS will be used by everyone. It's a shame North America still has years of plug incompatibilities and adapter fiddling to look forward to. Europe really got EV charging standardization right. The European EV infrastructure is much further advanced than the North American infrastructure thanks in part to sensible standardization.
- SEJeff 3y ago
  > It's a shame North America still has years of plug incompatibilities and adapter fiddling Not really, Tesla has over 24k charging stalls in the US. The second biggest is Electrify America, and they have only 3,800 charging stalls. There really aren't a lot of EV chargers that are non-tesla in the US, unlike the EU.
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    There are 7,869 locations and 15,661 CCS ports in the US and Canada (versus 2,297 locations and 25,247 Tesla ports): https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html It's plugs on chargers and inlets on cars. It'll be a slow and tedious process.
    - _ea1k 3y ago
      TBH, the afdc data badly overstates the number of available locations. Not only do they include a lot of broken or otherwise inaccessible locations, but they include things like this: https://www.plugshare.com/location/1564 https://www.plugshare.com/location/1564 I think that currently holds the record for the slowest DCFC in the country. :)
      - SEJeff 3y ago
        > max 13A, 4kW Wow! You'd get a better charge from a standard 15A 110V AC plug.
        jaguar1878 3y ago
        No, you want to compare Watts, not Volts, as Watts measures power and Volts is just potential. A 15A 110V outlet can supply 1500W continuous (1.5kW). A 4kW DC charger is almost three times higher power than this.
    - SEJeff 3y ago
      I didn’t include the crappy L2 destination chargers, of which there are a whole lot more of that support teslas. I was referring to the L3 superchargers / fast chargers or equivalent. The majority of the ones you linked are L2 chargers are are not that useful outside of destination charging.
      - clouddrover 3y ago
        That is DC fast chargers. If you include J1772 AC chargers in the count the numbers are 66,093 locations and 146,206 ports.
- maxdo 3y ago
  Stop misleading people. The opposite is happening. Tesla is opening their network to other brands. Ford and a few other car makers have already agreed. In new cars made from 2025, you can go to the only properly working charging network, plug in the car, and leave with no credit card hustle. Basically, like Tesla had forever. It's a shame other brands didn't adopt a much better Tesla adapter as a standard. It's much more convenient and light. I've seen how adapters work; they work badly and are glitchy. So, if someone buys a car with an old port in 2024, they will start to see lots of pain in 2025.
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    > Tesla is opening their network to other brands. By implementing CCS. How do you think it works in Europe right now? They all use CCS, both cars and chargers. Tesla included.
    - maxdo 3y ago
      NACS is protocol agnostic. Cars in Europe have different plugs. Tesla will use their protocol and support CCS on chargers. What Tesla offers to other brands in North America is much more advanced. New cars will be able to see on the map how many stalls are available etc. Payments integration etc. It's a far more deeper integration and I guess that's the real big deal that needs to be standardized. Tesla got the best-in-class charging experience, and finally, in 1 year, other brands can have somewhat matching capabilities.
      - clouddrover 3y ago
        > NACS is protocol agnostic. Yes, it's just a plug on the end of a CCS charger. > What Tesla offers to other brands in North America is much more advanced. They're offering CCS. It's how it works whether you like it or not.
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean w/r/t the adapters. It sounds like most manufacturers will just use Tesla supplied adapters. I doubt they will be very bulky. They might even be easier to use than native CCS1. :)
kwhitefoot 3y ago
No one is installing CCS1 any more surely?
- _ea1k 3y ago
  I think they will keep installing them for another few years. NEVI requires it and there are still quite a few CCS1 cars on the road. All of the cars that are switching will still ship with the CCS1 port next year too. They don't fully switch until 2025.
- valine 3y ago
  CCS1 is still dominate in North America. CCS2 only got traction in Europe.

maxdo 3y ago

It's the opposite. Every single EV car that is sold right now in North America except Tesla will need a retrofit. Read the article you shared. It's for use on other charging stations. In the picture, you see a dead charger adapter converted into a new Tesla standard one. It's a major pain for other brand EV owners In 1 year, almost at every charging station, you will have to deal with plugging converters in snow, rain, etc, making sure communication works.

clouddrover 3y ago
> Every single EV car that is sold right now in North America except Tesla will need a retrofit. No, they won't need a new ECU because they are already CCS cars. They'll need a dumb adapter if they can't get a new inlet installed.
- amluto 3y ago
  I expect a degree of intelligence to be important in the adapter. Specifically, unless the adapter is rated for the highest possible current and voltage that the physical form factor can support (1kV, 600A? Is there even a pre-ordained limit? Tesla reports that they’ve tested NACS up to quite impressive voltages and currents.), then the adapter needs to tell the car and/or charger to limit voltage and current. Otherwise it risks arcing and/or overheating. Also, whatever water cooling magic keeps the charger plug and its terminals cool won’t cool the adapter. Even the little charge-a-J1772-car-off-a-Tesla-level-2-charger hack adapters are generally dumb adapters designed for 40A or so and are not safe if connected to a full-spec 80A EVSE.
  - Rebelgecko 3y ago
    Isn't that negotiation already part of the CCS protocol? Otherwise 400v cars would be fried when they end up getting 800v from an L3 charger, or a Bolt would end up getting 300kW that it can't actually use
    - amluto 3y ago