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...in America. Europe here quite nicely standardising on CCS2.

alsodumb 3y ago
US is standardizing quite nicely too, on Tesla's charging standard. I can't think of a company that is not planning to use Tesla's charger going forward.
- jader201 3y ago
  Not really. Many Tesla Superchargers are being equipped with Magic Dock, which is perpetuating CCS. More manufacturers may be moving to NACS, but it’s not like chargers are moving away from CCS. If anything, the CCS infrastructure is growing.
  - InTheArena 3y ago
    CCS is dead with this. I expect magic dock installs to stop.
    - _ea1k 3y ago
      I think they are still a requirement for NEVI, and Tesla has won a few contracts for NEVI sites. I do expect them to stop eventually though. IMO, part of the reason they exist is that it lets them collect real world data on supercharger and adapter usage before the bigger rollouts next year.
  - eichin 3y ago
    How widespread is that really? After the first deployment (where every EV youtuber east of the Mississippi converged on one tesla lot in New York :-) I haven't seen it in tech news since, and looking in the app I see 2 private ("destination") chargers in all of MA, and none in CT...
  - giobox 3y ago
    > Many Tesla Superchargers are being equipped with Magic Dock, which is perpetuating CCS This isn't actually the case; while the tech press made a big deal about the project when announced, hardly any Super Charger sites have the Magic Dock. As of this month, it's only at ~50 Super Charger locations. I also think with widespread NACS adoption the rollout will slow down even more - what is the point of the project if almost all new EVs sold in the US will have NACS? There are over 2000 Tesla Super Charger locations in the US. I have never seen a Magic Dock in the wild personally, for what little additional it's worth. > https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-magic-dock-supercharger-intallations/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-magic-dock-supercharger-inta... > https://supercharge.info/data https://supercharge.info/data
    - NewJazz 3y ago
      Yeah this is being abandoned. But GM at least claims they'll offer a NACS->CCS1 adapter in 2024. So it just on the consumer to bring their own adapter. There is no need to have one at the stall for subsidy eligibility.
Hamuko 3y ago
Yeah, even Tesla uses CCS. https://electrek.co/2018/11/14/tesla-model-3-ccs-2-plug-europe-adapter-model-s-model-x/ https://electrek.co/2018/11/14/tesla-model-3-ccs-2-plug-euro...
- stephen_g 3y ago
  Same in Australia, Tesla and most other EVs are all CCS Type 2 here, except for some CHAdeMO in Japanese cars, but I can’t see that being a priority for charging networks going forward so I expect that to dwindle and they will have to switch to CCS like everyone else.
Moto7451 3y ago
IIRC it’s a legal requirement vs just a standard like CCS1. South Korea has the same legal demand for CCS1 so it’ll be interesting to see what happens with NACS there. I personally don’t mind using CCS vs NACS. I didn’t feel super inspired by the flex I felt when inserting a supercharger’s plug into a Model 3 but clearly it works fine in practice. My guess is that Electrify America with NACS plugs will still be just as problematic if they’re unreliable in your area. Plug vs Network vs Hardware are being conflated in this discussion. Adding CCS to Superchargers would have worked just as well but that’s not how America works in this case.
- InTheArena 3y ago
  CCS charging infrastructure is just awful. This is a problem mostly with infrastructure, but also with design compromises in the CCS design - both physical and software.
_ea1k 3y ago
I suspect the US would have done the same thing, if manufacturers had done CCS2 instead of CCS1. Also would have helped if the US had done "bring your own cable", which seems to be common in Europe. Interestingly, the new NACS standardization process seems to be encouraging that as well.
- pornel 3y ago
  BYOC is only for slow AC charging. All CCS2 DC chargers have cables built-in.
stetrain 3y ago
CCS1 is worse than CCS2 in a couple of ways. The latching mechanism is external which is bulkier and more fragile, and it doesn't support 3-phase AC charging. NACS does everything CCS1 does in a more compact package with an internal vehicle locking mechanism similar to what CCS2 uses. It also doesn't support 3-phase AC charging but this isn't very common in light commercial or residential service in the US. NACS / J3400 will likely stay a North American standard though, or maybe migrate to a few other markets like S. Korea which have also used CCS1. That lack of 3-phase support makes it a non-starter in Europe and CCS2 works perfectly fine there.
mschuster91 3y ago
Yeah, because CCS1 only supports 1 phase AC because the usual standard of residential power is 1 phase AC. In contrast, in Europe 3 phase AC is the standard, so it makes sense to support that advantage (especially the 400V across the legs) in charging vehicles.
- ComputerGuru 3y ago
  Three phase power is not “the standard” in Europe. It’s more available perhaps, but certainly not the default residential hookup.
  - jgilias 3y ago
    Europe is big. Where I live it’s pretty much the default. You can get a 1-phase connection, but you basically need to downgrade to it, and all the default wiring would be done in a way to support 3 phases if needed.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    In some European countries it is (even in my apartment in Copenhagen), in others it isn't. Where it isn't the default, it's generally available for an extra fee, and may well be the default for buildings slightly larger than a house — a shop, mechanic, etc.
  - apexalpha 3y ago
    in The Netherlands is absolutely is the default. My home, built in 1971, had 1 phase connected to it but the power company already buried the 2 extra copper wires for 3-phase hookup, requiring only a new meter for 3 phase to be installed.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    It is the default for building hookups (i.e. excluding individual apartments/condos/flats, but EV chargers don't make sense there anyway) at least in the Western European countries - can't speak for much of Eastern Europe but Croatia where it is also the default. Even during the 60s when the home of my grandparents was built in back-then Communist Yugoslavia, it was already 3 phase. Our transmission grid (that actually extends even down to Africa and parts of Asia!) is already three phases, we're not sparsely settled to require SWER anywhere, so it doesn't save the utilities any money to not lay three-phase AC to every building by default.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

US is standardizing quite nicely too, on Tesla's charging standard. I can't think of a company that is not planning to use Tesla's charger going forward.

jader201 3y ago
Not really. Many Tesla Superchargers are being equipped with Magic Dock, which is perpetuating CCS. More manufacturers may be moving to NACS, but it’s not like chargers are moving away from CCS. If anything, the CCS infrastructure is growing.
- InTheArena 3y ago
  CCS is dead with this. I expect magic dock installs to stop.
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    I think they are still a requirement for NEVI, and Tesla has won a few contracts for NEVI sites. I do expect them to stop eventually though. IMO, part of the reason they exist is that it lets them collect real world data on supercharger and adapter usage before the bigger rollouts next year.
- eichin 3y ago
  How widespread is that really? After the first deployment (where every EV youtuber east of the Mississippi converged on one tesla lot in New York :-) I haven't seen it in tech news since, and looking in the app I see 2 private ("destination") chargers in all of MA, and none in CT...
- giobox 3y ago
  > Many Tesla Superchargers are being equipped with Magic Dock, which is perpetuating CCS This isn't actually the case; while the tech press made a big deal about the project when announced, hardly any Super Charger sites have the Magic Dock. As of this month, it's only at ~50 Super Charger locations. I also think with widespread NACS adoption the rollout will slow down even more - what is the point of the project if almost all new EVs sold in the US will have NACS? There are over 2000 Tesla Super Charger locations in the US. I have never seen a Magic Dock in the wild personally, for what little additional it's worth. > https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-magic-dock-supercharger-intallations/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-magic-dock-supercharger-inta... > https://supercharge.info/data https://supercharge.info/data
  - NewJazz 3y ago
    Yeah this is being abandoned. But GM at least claims they'll offer a NACS->CCS1 adapter in 2024. So it just on the consumer to bring their own adapter. There is no need to have one at the stall for subsidy eligibility.

Hamuko 3y ago

Yeah, even Tesla uses CCS. https://electrek.co/2018/11/14/tesla-model-3-ccs-2-plug-europe-adapter-model-s-model-x/ https://electrek.co/2018/11/14/tesla-model-3-ccs-2-plug-euro...

stephen_g 3y ago
Same in Australia, Tesla and most other EVs are all CCS Type 2 here, except for some CHAdeMO in Japanese cars, but I can’t see that being a priority for charging networks going forward so I expect that to dwindle and they will have to switch to CCS like everyone else.

Moto7451 3y ago

IIRC it’s a legal requirement vs just a standard like CCS1. South Korea has the same legal demand for CCS1 so it’ll be interesting to see what happens with NACS there. I personally don’t mind using CCS vs NACS. I didn’t feel super inspired by the flex I felt when inserting a supercharger’s plug into a Model 3 but clearly it works fine in practice. My guess is that Electrify America with NACS plugs will still be just as problematic if they’re unreliable in your area. Plug vs Network vs Hardware are being conflated in this discussion. Adding CCS to Superchargers would have worked just as well but that’s not how America works in this case.

InTheArena 3y ago
CCS charging infrastructure is just awful. This is a problem mostly with infrastructure, but also with design compromises in the CCS design - both physical and software.

_ea1k 3y ago

I suspect the US would have done the same thing, if manufacturers had done CCS2 instead of CCS1. Also would have helped if the US had done "bring your own cable", which seems to be common in Europe. Interestingly, the new NACS standardization process seems to be encouraging that as well.

pornel 3y ago
BYOC is only for slow AC charging. All CCS2 DC chargers have cables built-in.

stetrain 3y ago

CCS1 is worse than CCS2 in a couple of ways. The latching mechanism is external which is bulkier and more fragile, and it doesn't support 3-phase AC charging. NACS does everything CCS1 does in a more compact package with an internal vehicle locking mechanism similar to what CCS2 uses. It also doesn't support 3-phase AC charging but this isn't very common in light commercial or residential service in the US. NACS / J3400 will likely stay a North American standard though, or maybe migrate to a few other markets like S. Korea which have also used CCS1. That lack of 3-phase support makes it a non-starter in Europe and CCS2 works perfectly fine there.

mschuster91 3y ago

Yeah, because CCS1 only supports 1 phase AC because the usual standard of residential power is 1 phase AC. In contrast, in Europe 3 phase AC is the standard, so it makes sense to support that advantage (especially the 400V across the legs) in charging vehicles.

ComputerGuru 3y ago
Three phase power is not “the standard” in Europe. It’s more available perhaps, but certainly not the default residential hookup.
- jgilias 3y ago
  Europe is big. Where I live it’s pretty much the default. You can get a 1-phase connection, but you basically need to downgrade to it, and all the default wiring would be done in a way to support 3 phases if needed.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  In some European countries it is (even in my apartment in Copenhagen), in others it isn't. Where it isn't the default, it's generally available for an extra fee, and may well be the default for buildings slightly larger than a house — a shop, mechanic, etc.
- apexalpha 3y ago
  in The Netherlands is absolutely is the default. My home, built in 1971, had 1 phase connected to it but the power company already buried the 2 extra copper wires for 3-phase hookup, requiring only a new meter for 3 phase to be installed.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  It is the default for building hookups (i.e. excluding individual apartments/condos/flats, but EV chargers don't make sense there anyway) at least in the Western European countries - can't speak for much of Eastern Europe but Croatia where it is also the default. Even during the 60s when the home of my grandparents was built in back-then Communist Yugoslavia, it was already 3 phase. Our transmission grid (that actually extends even down to Africa and parts of Asia!) is already three phases, we're not sparsely settled to require SWER anywhere, so it doesn't save the utilities any money to not lay three-phase AC to every building by default.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]