3 ms·

Wayland won't work well on non-Linux systems, and this is intentional. So, for the foreseeable feature, it can't replace X because its developers don't care.

craftkiller 3y ago
I've been running Wayland (sway) on FreeBSD flawlessly for years.
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  That totally misses the point. How about running Wayland on systems that a non-negligible number of people use, like Macs? Or even an enormous number of people, like Windows?
  - vetinari 3y ago
    Why should be Windows or Mac support a concern for Wayland compositors? DWM or Quartz authors don't care about Linux either.
    - rhabarba 3y ago
      To be fair, X (VcXsrv) works on Windows and (XQuartz) pre-M1 macOS.
      - vetinari 3y ago
        They do, yes. Nobody will prevent anyone trying to port Wayland compositors, either. If that's your itch, feel free to go for it. But the Wayland compositor authors will steer their software to run effectively on Linux. If that means it is difficult to port to Windows or Mac (whether because they miss dma-buf, or demand something that the native platform won't provide to non-system process), so be it.
      - nolist_policy 3y ago
        And Windows apparently has a Wayland compositor for WSL
        vetinari 3y ago
        They use RDP RAIL (RDP-for-a-single-window) on top of Weston, and then the resulting surfaces are managed by the DWM. Which is actually an interesting approach; linux native compositors should "steal" that idea and implement it too. It could lead to RemoteApp-alike for Linux.
        yencabulator 3y ago
        ChromeOS transports Wayland over virtio so windows opened from virtual machines are seamlessly part of the main desktop. Waypipe proxies Wayland over SSH etc: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe/ https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe/
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Why when both systems have great window managers?
    - DonHopkins 3y ago
      Since when did Windows or Macs ever have great window managers? If you just ran a web browser directly on the hardware (or native window system in full screen mode) instead of bothering with non-great X11 or Wayland or Windows or Mac window systems, then you could write great window managers using open standards that ran identically across Linux, Mac, and Windows, plus mobile and VR devices too. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38710127 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38710127
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Better than what most GNU/Linux folks use, many of whom apparently would be quite happy using twm.
        rhabarba 3y ago
        Ah, twm is still better than Gnome.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        For the folks which the only use of X Windows is to manage xterm sessions. I was one of those people, in 1994.
        marrs 3y ago
        I doubt that. Most of the WMs available for Linux are way more capable than their standard counterparts. There's a rich diversity of UXs available on the platform. Hopefully their ideas won't die with them if they get left behind by Wayland.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        That fragmentation is one of the reasons why in the end you get an Electron app. Most people don't want to spend hours tweaking Enlightenment themes, or keyboard shortcuts for tiled windows.
- superkuh 3y ago
  Ah yes, sway, the one of the waylands that refuses to add support for complex mouse/keyboard and alternate input devices. https://github.com/swaywm/wlroots/issues/2378 https://github.com/swaywm/wlroots/issues/2378 . You've been running a wayland, not wayland, because there is no "wayland": only many different waylands.
  - craftkiller 3y ago
    > You've been running a wayland, not wayland, because there is no "wayland": only many different waylands. I am aware, that is why I specified which compositor I am running. The comment I replied to said (emphasis mine) "*Wayland* won't work well on non-Linux systems" which is clearly false. To put it into another context: only a subset of C programs run on windows, but it would be silly to claim C won't work on windows. As for the bug report you linked, the response seems quite reasonable: > We already have Wayland protocols for input emulation. I think libei should add support for those. Since standardized protocols exist, why should every compositor have to integrate this library instead of the library integrating support for the standardized protocols?
    - superkuh 3y ago
      >support for the standardized protocols? What standardized protocol? Each wayland makes a different choice. That's the problem. And yeah, I guess I can't say this is a sway issue, their choice is reasonable enough. But it highlights how reasonable actions in a broken system like the waylands can cause problems. They're not doing anything "wrong" and neither are the waylands using libei (all the mouse/keyboard sharing programs target libei, maybe in the future some can target whatever sway comes up with). But it does lead to things not working across waylands. Whereas in X things do work no matter what X implementation you use.

craftkiller 3y ago

I've been running Wayland (sway) on FreeBSD flawlessly for years.

DonHopkins 3y ago
That totally misses the point. How about running Wayland on systems that a non-negligible number of people use, like Macs? Or even an enormous number of people, like Windows?
- vetinari 3y ago
  Why should be Windows or Mac support a concern for Wayland compositors? DWM or Quartz authors don't care about Linux either.
  - rhabarba 3y ago
    To be fair, X (VcXsrv) works on Windows and (XQuartz) pre-M1 macOS.
    - vetinari 3y ago
      They do, yes. Nobody will prevent anyone trying to port Wayland compositors, either. If that's your itch, feel free to go for it. But the Wayland compositor authors will steer their software to run effectively on Linux. If that means it is difficult to port to Windows or Mac (whether because they miss dma-buf, or demand something that the native platform won't provide to non-system process), so be it.
    - nolist_policy 3y ago
      And Windows apparently has a Wayland compositor for WSL
      - vetinari 3y ago
        They use RDP RAIL (RDP-for-a-single-window) on top of Weston, and then the resulting surfaces are managed by the DWM. Which is actually an interesting approach; linux native compositors should "steal" that idea and implement it too. It could lead to RemoteApp-alike for Linux.
        yencabulator 3y ago
        ChromeOS transports Wayland over virtio so windows opened from virtual machines are seamlessly part of the main desktop. Waypipe proxies Wayland over SSH etc: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe/ https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe/
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Why when both systems have great window managers?
  - DonHopkins 3y ago
    Since when did Windows or Macs ever have great window managers? If you just ran a web browser directly on the hardware (or native window system in full screen mode) instead of bothering with non-great X11 or Wayland or Windows or Mac window systems, then you could write great window managers using open standards that ran identically across Linux, Mac, and Windows, plus mobile and VR devices too. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38710127 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38710127
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Better than what most GNU/Linux folks use, many of whom apparently would be quite happy using twm.
      - rhabarba 3y ago
        Ah, twm is still better than Gnome.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        For the folks which the only use of X Windows is to manage xterm sessions. I was one of those people, in 1994.
      - marrs 3y ago
        I doubt that. Most of the WMs available for Linux are way more capable than their standard counterparts. There's a rich diversity of UXs available on the platform. Hopefully their ideas won't die with them if they get left behind by Wayland.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        That fragmentation is one of the reasons why in the end you get an Electron app. Most people don't want to spend hours tweaking Enlightenment themes, or keyboard shortcuts for tiled windows.
superkuh 3y ago
Ah yes, sway, the one of the waylands that refuses to add support for complex mouse/keyboard and alternate input devices. https://github.com/swaywm/wlroots/issues/2378 https://github.com/swaywm/wlroots/issues/2378 . You've been running a wayland, not wayland, because there is no "wayland": only many different waylands.
- craftkiller 3y ago
  > You've been running a wayland, not wayland, because there is no "wayland": only many different waylands. I am aware, that is why I specified which compositor I am running. The comment I replied to said (emphasis mine) "*Wayland* won't work well on non-Linux systems" which is clearly false. To put it into another context: only a subset of C programs run on windows, but it would be silly to claim C won't work on windows. As for the bug report you linked, the response seems quite reasonable: > We already have Wayland protocols for input emulation. I think libei should add support for those. Since standardized protocols exist, why should every compositor have to integrate this library instead of the library integrating support for the standardized protocols?
  - superkuh 3y ago
    >support for the standardized protocols? What standardized protocol? Each wayland makes a different choice. That's the problem. And yeah, I guess I can't say this is a sway issue, their choice is reasonable enough. But it highlights how reasonable actions in a broken system like the waylands can cause problems. They're not doing anything "wrong" and neither are the waylands using libei (all the mouse/keyboard sharing programs target libei, maybe in the future some can target whatever sway comes up with). But it does lead to things not working across waylands. Whereas in X things do work no matter what X implementation you use.