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X was so insecure that wayland maintainers must now work tirelessly to roughly emulate these insecurities such as taking screenshots and sharing their desktop i

by mouse_ 3y ago

X was so insecure that wayland maintainers must now work tirelessly to roughly emulate these insecurities such as taking screenshots and sharing their desktop in their new protocol. Don't get me wrong; I don't like X, but if I had it my way we'd all be using Haiku with a Linux or BSD kernel right now.

BenjiWiebe 3y ago
If those are insecurities, I want an insecure desktop. I use my computer to get things done, not be a paradigm of security.
- vlovich123 3y ago
  Those aren't inherently insecurities, but the way X implemented them was quite insecure. Wayland is now having to do the heavy lifting of defining a secure protocol to implement it and migrating the entire Linux GUI ecosystem to using the new mechanisms. Also, I can take screenshots just fine on Wayland via KWin. I can't pick arbitrary 3p apps just yet but KWin's screenshotter is fine. Not sure about screen recording as I haven't needed that. VNC-style applications don't work but if you do a search you come up with sunshine+moonlight which uses Nvidia's protocol + H264 streaming.
  - troyvit 3y ago
    > Wayland protocols hit 1.0 in 2015 and [...] (from further up in the thread[1]) > Also, I can take screenshots just fine on Wayland via KWin. I can't pick arbitrary 3p apps just yet but KWin's screenshotter is fine. Maybe in another nine years Wayland users can choose whatever screenshot tool they want. X is annoying but I'd go crazy if that was my life. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38709188 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38709188
    - nolist_policy 3y ago
      You can wait 9 years and have a low chance of your screenshot tool working on Wayland. Or you can use a different tool that supports Wayland now. Or you can can add Wayland support to your favorite tool now (assuming it's open-source).
  - account42 3y ago
    "secure" really has become a buzzword. > Those aren't inherently insecurities, but the way X implemented them was quite insecure. In what way does X.org add any security holes to the average Linux desktop where you have programs (from a trusted package repository) which can access everything your user account can?
    - vlovich123 3y ago
      You get that not every program invoked on a desktop necessarily comes by that way right? But that’s not actually the core problem. I trust you can do your own research as to what the security issues are, but as a starter here’s https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/clipboard-security.html https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/clipboard-security.html These are very old issues and are some of the major reasons Wayland was started in the first place. May want to read up on what the problems identified by the project were when it started considering all X maintainers migrated their time and energy to Wayland.
      - account42 3y ago
        I am well aware of what programs with access to my computer can do. That's why I use programs from sources I trust. I have zero interest in a low trust computing model because that comes with a cost to usability and performance, especially for power users but not also for others. I also get that most commercial software developers these days should be treated as adversaries because they will break any trust you place in them. The correct response to that should be to not use their software or to create and enforce laws to get them to behave. This is really no different to anti-social behavior outside cyberspace - we have laws and police to enforce them precisely so that we can walk the streets alone without fear and leave our homes unattended. The degree of that safety varies greatly around the world and I much prefer living in places where I don't have to have bars in front of my windows. The same applies to computers.
        dale_glass 3y ago
        This is not practical for most people. Eg, this completely excludes Steam. Laws aren't a good way to deal with the issue because they don't prevent damage. Try and sue some guy living in Russia.
  - anthk 3y ago
    Again, I said this multiple times: XTerm/UXTerm has a secure mode to lock all input.
  - biblbroxxx 3y ago
    Spectacle can record a screen, too. It works fine in general, but I had some issues with applications that were running with Xwayland.
foul 3y ago
Way way better than Xorg, but sooner or later 3D has to come to unix-world.

by mouse_ 3y ago

BenjiWiebe 3y ago

If those are insecurities, I want an insecure desktop. I use my computer to get things done, not be a paradigm of security.

vlovich123 3y ago
Those aren't inherently insecurities, but the way X implemented them was quite insecure. Wayland is now having to do the heavy lifting of defining a secure protocol to implement it and migrating the entire Linux GUI ecosystem to using the new mechanisms. Also, I can take screenshots just fine on Wayland via KWin. I can't pick arbitrary 3p apps just yet but KWin's screenshotter is fine. Not sure about screen recording as I haven't needed that. VNC-style applications don't work but if you do a search you come up with sunshine+moonlight which uses Nvidia's protocol + H264 streaming.
- troyvit 3y ago
  > Wayland protocols hit 1.0 in 2015 and [...] (from further up in the thread[1]) > Also, I can take screenshots just fine on Wayland via KWin. I can't pick arbitrary 3p apps just yet but KWin's screenshotter is fine. Maybe in another nine years Wayland users can choose whatever screenshot tool they want. X is annoying but I'd go crazy if that was my life. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38709188 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38709188
  - nolist_policy 3y ago
    You can wait 9 years and have a low chance of your screenshot tool working on Wayland. Or you can use a different tool that supports Wayland now. Or you can can add Wayland support to your favorite tool now (assuming it's open-source).
- account42 3y ago
  "secure" really has become a buzzword. > Those aren't inherently insecurities, but the way X implemented them was quite insecure. In what way does X.org add any security holes to the average Linux desktop where you have programs (from a trusted package repository) which can access everything your user account can?
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    You get that not every program invoked on a desktop necessarily comes by that way right? But that’s not actually the core problem. I trust you can do your own research as to what the security issues are, but as a starter here’s https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/clipboard-security.html https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/clipboard-security.html These are very old issues and are some of the major reasons Wayland was started in the first place. May want to read up on what the problems identified by the project were when it started considering all X maintainers migrated their time and energy to Wayland.
    - account42 3y ago
      I am well aware of what programs with access to my computer can do. That's why I use programs from sources I trust. I have zero interest in a low trust computing model because that comes with a cost to usability and performance, especially for power users but not also for others. I also get that most commercial software developers these days should be treated as adversaries because they will break any trust you place in them. The correct response to that should be to not use their software or to create and enforce laws to get them to behave. This is really no different to anti-social behavior outside cyberspace - we have laws and police to enforce them precisely so that we can walk the streets alone without fear and leave our homes unattended. The degree of that safety varies greatly around the world and I much prefer living in places where I don't have to have bars in front of my windows. The same applies to computers.
      - dale_glass 3y ago
        This is not practical for most people. Eg, this completely excludes Steam. Laws aren't a good way to deal with the issue because they don't prevent damage. Try and sue some guy living in Russia.
- anthk 3y ago
  Again, I said this multiple times: XTerm/UXTerm has a secure mode to lock all input.
- biblbroxxx 3y ago
  Spectacle can record a screen, too. It works fine in general, but I had some issues with applications that were running with Xwayland.

foul 3y ago

Way way better than Xorg, but sooner or later 3D has to come to unix-world.