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Sales numbers seem to tell otherwise. Tesla is the best car. I own one and agree. That said, it’s not perfect as a car. Also, what a ridiculous answer to crit

Sales numbers seem to tell otherwise. Tesla is the best car. I own one and agree. That said, it’s not perfect as a car. Also, what a ridiculous answer to criticism about quality from Elon. Just nuts. Tesla makes good cars but to hide problems like a six year old in the hopes that no one notices is just so dumb. It’s not whether you make mistakes but how you handle them when you discover them.

7thaccount 3y ago
Sales are not always indicative of "best". Rather, it indicates popularity. Teslas are nice in some ways and were revolutionary, but build quality and consistency have always been crap and it would seem there are some major issues with all the self driving software.
- jnsaff2 3y ago
  I would argue that sales is indicative of the best as it best matches the desires, utility and constraints for the most people. It removes individual bias from the equation as individually naming the best is impossible. Not disagreeing with the rest. I have not had notable build quality issues but I recognize that it is an issue generally. The self driving part is a shameful disaster which I’ve stayed as far as possible. Didn’t pay for it and even the parts that come as standard are sometimes scary. Tho not as scary as some other implementations that don’t recognize cars stopped at red light in front of you and are happy to plough into them at full speed (looking at you Volvo).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    Sales-wise, McDonalds has the most popular burger, but it's hard to argue it's the best you can buy.
  - johnisgood 3y ago
    Not quite though, as many things influence sale. Availability is one of them. Someone already brought up McDonalds burgers as an example.
    - jnsaff2 3y ago
      Availability is a constraint, price is a constraint. No?
  - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
    > I would argue that sales is indicative of the best as it best matches the desires, utility and constraints for the most people. If you assume consumers are rational, then yes. But I think that's an incredibly naive stance to take. "Desires" will do a lot of heavily lifting to determine "best" since they will include a LOT of subjective measures such as susceptibility to marketing campaigns. Besides, we all know the Miata is the best car. https://youtu.be/kp1kuo6xkbE?t=239 https://youtu.be/kp1kuo6xkbE?t=239
LeafItAlone 3y ago
> Tesla is the best car. I own one and agree. How are _you_ defining best? I do not own one, because I do not agree. They may have one of the best selling cars (in a given category), which is admirable. But that doesn’t mean they are the best overall. After driving one (Model 3) as a rental, I briefly considered getting one. But after thinking about it, I realized that was because I liked their (to me) gimmicks. Overall, the vehicle was not the best to me.
- jnsaff2 3y ago
  The best that fits the desires, utility and constraints for you. If it’s best overall then best selling seems to be a fair way of removing bias as it is the best for most people.
- bitvoid 3y ago
  I've driven 3 as rentals (2 Model 3s, 1 Model Y) and they all had issues. They all made a ton of noise on the highway (my 15 year old SUV makes less noise at higher speeds), cameras would randomly go completely out, screen would become unresponsive, etc. Unrelated to reliability, I'm also not a fan of everything being controlled from a touchscreen. My wife wants one after driving a rental, but I think she too has fallen for the gimmicks.
  - nunez 3y ago
    I've rented several Teslas, mostly with Avis but some with Hertz. All of them are ridden very hard (thanks Uber) and, consequently, had heaps of issues. Every single rental from Avis had a non-OEM replacement front or side window. One of them was replaced so wrongly, you could feel the air leaking through even when it was closed. Almost every single rental also had two or more budget tires on them which tend to be louder and less energy-saving. One Tesla had its rear camera pointed downward way too much. Unfortunately, because this car was Vision-only and lacked ultrasonics, and Vision-only Park Assist is slightly better than absolutely fucking useless, backing it in was a 2002-esque shit show every time. This isn't unusual for rental car companies. They do the barest minimum repairs on their cars while charging you 10x the price if the damage is your fault. Scam life. The Teslas I rented on Turo, however, were in great shape, including the Tesla that made me want to buy my own Model 3 (which is still going great 90k miles later). That said, when I financed our Model 3 in 2020, there really weren't any other EVs and the non-Tesla charging network was practically non-existent. It's a completely different world now. I've rented many non-Tesla EVs. All of them are much better driving experiences. I'm particularly fond of the Chevy Bolt for a simple, cheap, no-bullshit commuter EV and the Genesis GV90 or Volvo XC40 Recharge Twin for something plushier.
acatton 3y ago
VHS was a superior format to Betamax. I mean... their sales numbers proved it, right?
jgilias 3y ago
I remember the first time I got into a Tesla Model S. I got a rental one just to see how it’s like. Was super looking forward to it. Getting into it was a downer. I disliked the interior or rather the lack of it so much. Driving it exceeded all my expectations though. At that point it was the best EV, and one of the best cars on the street. Revolutionary indeed. So, I can see how it could be seen as the best car for many people. Me? I’ll take an E-Tron, or a Taycan over a Tesla any day. I myself drive a KIA, and I much prefer it over the comparable Model 3. And that’s before taking reliability into consideration.
- dghughes 3y ago
  I'd like to buy a KIA EV but it seems KIA doesn't want to sell cars. Even if you bought one they are holding it some for a year! https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kia-canada-car-sales-1.7063216 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kia-canada-car-sales-1.706321...
  - jgilias 3y ago
    Oh man, what a load of crap! Got mine in two weeks. A completely different market, and a few years back now.
  - piva00 3y ago
    That is KIA Canada shenanigans, not KIA as a general brand. They seem pretty available here in Sweden, a friend just got his EV6 GT delivered less than a month after purchase.
rsynnott 3y ago
Tesla’s market dominance is largely a thing in the US, where there is, currently, very little choice (though this will change). In markets with more of a selection of electric cars, like Europe and China, it is less dominant. US sales don’t demonstrate that Tesla is best; they demonstrate that the major manufacturers see the US market as more difficult to address/lower priority (and they’re not wrong, for a variety of reasons).
- boobsbr 3y ago
  > Tesla’s market dominance is largely a thing in the US Tesla is behing VW in total sales, but the M3 and MY are the best selling EVs in Europe. https://www.electromaps.com/en/blog/europes-best-selling-electric-vehicles-2022 https://www.electromaps.com/en/blog/europes-best-selling-ele... https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/04/24/these-are-the-top-5-best-selling-electric-cars-on-europes-roads-in-2023 https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/04/24/these-are-the-top-5...
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    Well, yeah, but that’s really more a consequence of a different marketing strategy than anything else. VW Group makes several minor variations of the same car under different brands. There’s a Cupra version of the id.3 and Audi and Skoda versions of the id.4, say, all under different branding. There are a bunch of other minor variants, too. Bizarrely, there will also soon be a _Ford_ version of the id.4 (the Explorer EV), though that would go under Ford’s total, not VW Group’s. Besides the Ford, VW Group could, if it wanted to, condense all this into three significant cars, plus the microbus, but that’s not how they operate. Tesla is about 15% of the European market, joint-second. In the (smaller) US market it is nearly 50%. I think it’s reasonable to describe it as very dominant in the US, but not in Europe. It would be reasonable to expect this to change as US manufacturers go electric and as foreign manufacturers go electric for their US-targeted models.

7thaccount 3y ago

Sales are not always indicative of "best". Rather, it indicates popularity. Teslas are nice in some ways and were revolutionary, but build quality and consistency have always been crap and it would seem there are some major issues with all the self driving software.

jnsaff2 3y ago
I would argue that sales is indicative of the best as it best matches the desires, utility and constraints for the most people. It removes individual bias from the equation as individually naming the best is impossible. Not disagreeing with the rest. I have not had notable build quality issues but I recognize that it is an issue generally. The self driving part is a shameful disaster which I’ve stayed as far as possible. Didn’t pay for it and even the parts that come as standard are sometimes scary. Tho not as scary as some other implementations that don’t recognize cars stopped at red light in front of you and are happy to plough into them at full speed (looking at you Volvo).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  Sales-wise, McDonalds has the most popular burger, but it's hard to argue it's the best you can buy.
- johnisgood 3y ago
  Not quite though, as many things influence sale. Availability is one of them. Someone already brought up McDonalds burgers as an example.
  - jnsaff2 3y ago
    Availability is a constraint, price is a constraint. No?
- Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
  > I would argue that sales is indicative of the best as it best matches the desires, utility and constraints for the most people. If you assume consumers are rational, then yes. But I think that's an incredibly naive stance to take. "Desires" will do a lot of heavily lifting to determine "best" since they will include a LOT of subjective measures such as susceptibility to marketing campaigns. Besides, we all know the Miata is the best car. https://youtu.be/kp1kuo6xkbE?t=239 https://youtu.be/kp1kuo6xkbE?t=239

LeafItAlone 3y ago

> Tesla is the best car. I own one and agree. How are _you_ defining best? I do not own one, because I do not agree. They may have one of the best selling cars (in a given category), which is admirable. But that doesn’t mean they are the best overall. After driving one (Model 3) as a rental, I briefly considered getting one. But after thinking about it, I realized that was because I liked their (to me) gimmicks. Overall, the vehicle was not the best to me.

jnsaff2 3y ago
The best that fits the desires, utility and constraints for you. If it’s best overall then best selling seems to be a fair way of removing bias as it is the best for most people.
bitvoid 3y ago
I've driven 3 as rentals (2 Model 3s, 1 Model Y) and they all had issues. They all made a ton of noise on the highway (my 15 year old SUV makes less noise at higher speeds), cameras would randomly go completely out, screen would become unresponsive, etc. Unrelated to reliability, I'm also not a fan of everything being controlled from a touchscreen. My wife wants one after driving a rental, but I think she too has fallen for the gimmicks.
- nunez 3y ago
  I've rented several Teslas, mostly with Avis but some with Hertz. All of them are ridden very hard (thanks Uber) and, consequently, had heaps of issues. Every single rental from Avis had a non-OEM replacement front or side window. One of them was replaced so wrongly, you could feel the air leaking through even when it was closed. Almost every single rental also had two or more budget tires on them which tend to be louder and less energy-saving. One Tesla had its rear camera pointed downward way too much. Unfortunately, because this car was Vision-only and lacked ultrasonics, and Vision-only Park Assist is slightly better than absolutely fucking useless, backing it in was a 2002-esque shit show every time. This isn't unusual for rental car companies. They do the barest minimum repairs on their cars while charging you 10x the price if the damage is your fault. Scam life. The Teslas I rented on Turo, however, were in great shape, including the Tesla that made me want to buy my own Model 3 (which is still going great 90k miles later). That said, when I financed our Model 3 in 2020, there really weren't any other EVs and the non-Tesla charging network was practically non-existent. It's a completely different world now. I've rented many non-Tesla EVs. All of them are much better driving experiences. I'm particularly fond of the Chevy Bolt for a simple, cheap, no-bullshit commuter EV and the Genesis GV90 or Volvo XC40 Recharge Twin for something plushier.

acatton 3y ago

VHS was a superior format to Betamax. I mean... their sales numbers proved it, right?

jgilias 3y ago

I remember the first time I got into a Tesla Model S. I got a rental one just to see how it’s like. Was super looking forward to it. Getting into it was a downer. I disliked the interior or rather the lack of it so much. Driving it exceeded all my expectations though. At that point it was the best EV, and one of the best cars on the street. Revolutionary indeed. So, I can see how it could be seen as the best car for many people. Me? I’ll take an E-Tron, or a Taycan over a Tesla any day. I myself drive a KIA, and I much prefer it over the comparable Model 3. And that’s before taking reliability into consideration.

dghughes 3y ago
I'd like to buy a KIA EV but it seems KIA doesn't want to sell cars. Even if you bought one they are holding it some for a year! https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kia-canada-car-sales-1.7063216 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kia-canada-car-sales-1.706321...
- jgilias 3y ago
  Oh man, what a load of crap! Got mine in two weeks. A completely different market, and a few years back now.
- piva00 3y ago
  That is KIA Canada shenanigans, not KIA as a general brand. They seem pretty available here in Sweden, a friend just got his EV6 GT delivered less than a month after purchase.

rsynnott 3y ago

Tesla’s market dominance is largely a thing in the US, where there is, currently, very little choice (though this will change). In markets with more of a selection of electric cars, like Europe and China, it is less dominant. US sales don’t demonstrate that Tesla is best; they demonstrate that the major manufacturers see the US market as more difficult to address/lower priority (and they’re not wrong, for a variety of reasons).

boobsbr 3y ago
> Tesla’s market dominance is largely a thing in the US Tesla is behing VW in total sales, but the M3 and MY are the best selling EVs in Europe. https://www.electromaps.com/en/blog/europes-best-selling-electric-vehicles-2022 https://www.electromaps.com/en/blog/europes-best-selling-ele... https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/04/24/these-are-the-top-5-best-selling-electric-cars-on-europes-roads-in-2023 https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/04/24/these-are-the-top-5...
- rsynnott 3y ago
  Well, yeah, but that’s really more a consequence of a different marketing strategy than anything else. VW Group makes several minor variations of the same car under different brands. There’s a Cupra version of the id.3 and Audi and Skoda versions of the id.4, say, all under different branding. There are a bunch of other minor variants, too. Bizarrely, there will also soon be a _Ford_ version of the id.4 (the Explorer EV), though that would go under Ford’s total, not VW Group’s. Besides the Ford, VW Group could, if it wanted to, condense all this into three significant cars, plus the microbus, but that’s not how they operate. Tesla is about 15% of the European market, joint-second. In the (smaller) US market it is nearly 50%. I think it’s reasonable to describe it as very dominant in the US, but not in Europe. It would be reasonable to expect this to change as US manufacturers go electric and as foreign manufacturers go electric for their US-targeted models.