4 ms·

No, not only the "ambitions of the common man", but of man or life itself, no matter if common or exceptional (if there is such a difference at all here). I'm l

No, not only the "ambitions of the common man", but of man or life itself, no matter if common or exceptional (if there is such a difference at all here). I'm living in Austria, and I feel that I have to leave this country. I want to move back to Bulgaria or somewhere else, where life is wild, natural and rough. The west has become tame and sick, and I got exhausted of it. I don't fit in this society anymore, and I can't be productive under its conditions. But you can't even say that out loud anymore, because that means "questioning the whole western ideology" and suddenly someone feels threatened, and myself becomes a criminal. I'm tired of a society where the fears of person A makes' person B a criminal, and of people lacking any decisiveness or spontaneity - and being afraid of spontaneous and decisive people. If wester culture is anything, then it is "fake". Probably the reason, why the author, "the rootless cosmopolitan" moved back to Bulgaria, and found again a sense of feeling home. I claim that the West has forgotten what "home" means. Western culture has become empty and fake - and I'm tired to explain the most obvious thing to so many people - and in the end, they don't believe you anyway. They really believe, they are part of something bigger, are very important and are going to be famous or something. Intellectual vanity and luxury and bragging. And someone knows, very well, how to define himself and where he stands. The question is not how to objectively categorize or define you, but rather how and what you have to say about yourself. edit: in Bulgaria, there is a common truth: life in Bulgaria is shit. But it is impossible to agree on the same truth in western societies, because that's the strong myth they rely on - that they are better, than the rest of the world. Do you get what I mean? Anyone who is dissatisfied with the west must be out of their minds. There are things that have now become impossible in the West. Simply expressing unsatisfaction has become a danger for the status quo or the state.

iGo_by_Ganio 3y ago
[dead]
hydrok9 3y ago
I find your views very interesting and that they resonate with me. are you in fact planning to move back to Bulgaria?
- Vektorceraptor 3y ago
  Thank you. Feels good to know others think or feel alike. It's not concrete yet, but I'm thinking about it out loud. The last time I applied for a job, I applied abroad. I don't feel fully ready to move to Bulgaria yet, but maybe later. Most of my childhood Bulgarian friends were in the UK for many years, and some have returned. Well, I don't know yet... but it sounds nice.
daemonk 3y ago
I appreciate the perspective. There appears to be a lot of commonalities between your viewpoint and themes of classic Russian literature.
woah 3y ago
> There are things that have now become impossible in the West. Simply expressing unsatisfaction has become a danger for the status quo or the state. What? Expressing unsatisfaction is one the primary genres of social media post.
- bruce511 3y ago
  Yes, social media seems to exist to create outrage. But so much of it seems to be outrage for outrage's sake. Like other things it seems to have no resonant permanence. it seems to be manufactured for a purpose, then abandoned, or worse, endlessly recycled. On the other hand, raising items of concern about some other things get enormous pushback (and quick down votes.) Things like- Does the military really need 777 billion dollars? Why are health-care outcomes so disparate? Why is the US so far behind socially (workers rights, maternity leave, et al)? Why is the answer to another school shooting more guns? Why is building housing in my neighbourhood so hard? How is our life and lifestyle contributing to climate change? Why does climate change even matter? In the US (and Europe etc) the comfortable middle class is so scared of change, any change at all, that they'll do anything to keep the status quo. And where there has been change there's a desire to rewind the political clock, to return to "happier times" (where, incidentally , wages were $10 a week, a detail lost in inflation discussions.) Change is scary. Suggesting things could change for the better scares a lot of people who are confortable-enough. So yes, Expressing dissatisfaction with certain things which seem to strike at the heart of that comfortableness is thus not OK. But clearly, since life is not perfect, we should create narratives explaining our current shortcomings. We need to blame -something- so better that we are presented with the issue (immigration! Gay people!) lest we start thinking for ourselves. So yes, social media is all about dissatisfaction, but it all seems terribly shallow, self-serving, and, dare I say it, manufactured.
  - woah 3y ago
    Sounds like you're mad that some people online don't agree with your political opinions. Imagining that your personal politics are something that everyone would agree with if only the veil could be lifted and a mysterious "they" would stop suppressing the truth is the lowest form of political thought.
cstejerean 3y ago
> Just because you can't free yourself from your nihilistic mental wheel, you have to conjure up and condemn the entire collective. Herein lies the birth of all 'structural arguments', I claim, ad hoc. 'My dissatisfaction must have structural reasons, otherwise I wouldn't be dissatisfied.' > The west has become tame and sick, and I got exhausted of it. I don't fit in this society anymore, and I can't be productive under its conditions. I can't help but notice the connection here though, your complaints certainly sound like attempts to conjure up and condemn the entire collective to explain your dissatisfaction. It might be worth reflecting on that.
stickfigure 3y ago
I'm curious about your perspective, but I'm unable to understand these abstractions. Can you give me some examples? What fears of person A makes person B a criminal? What parts of western culture are "fake"? What do you mean by "fake"? Or by "tame and sick"? You sound a lot like Holden Caulfield - a quintessential part of Western Culture.
TaurenHunter 3y ago
Your post resonated with me and you have a well-structured description of this sentiment. Are there any books/articles that you can recommend about this issue?
UncleOxidant 3y ago
Replying as a 60yo American living in the Western part of the US (ie. I'm about as Westerner as it gets, I suppose)... > I claim that the West has forgotten what "home" means. This I mostly agree with. The America I'm familiar with is quite rootless. In fact rootlessness was encouraged even ("you should be willing to move to a new/better job"). It goes all the way back to manifest destiny - always be on the move. There's a temporary feeling about everything. Most of our buildings aren't intended to last centuries - they're intended to be knocked down when something more profitable comes along and that might happen just be in a few years. > Western culture has become empty and fake I agree with this as well. Style over substance. Confidence is valued over competence. > They really believe, they are part of something bigger, are very important and are going to be famous or something. But this part I don't agree with. I think if anything Americans in 2023 would like to feel like they're part of something bigger but that feeling has been lost for quite a while now. There's no shared vision of what America should be at this point like there mostly was 40 or 50 years ago. That common vision has shattered into a million pieces especially over the last 10 years or so. We're the most isolated people on earth. > There are things that have now become impossible in the West. Simply expressing unsatisfaction has become a danger for the status quo or the state. I don't think you've been listening. There's plenty of expressed dissatisfaction - I just did above. Social media is rife with dissatisfaction.
- mikhael28 3y ago
  Agreed on all points, though I would say that 'home' has very different meanings, for very different people.
bryananderson 3y ago
Sorry but I can’t stand when someone takes their own dissatisfaction (which is entirely valid, it’s your life after all) and generalizes it to a grand social theory in a way that is simultaneously immensely self-important (everyone who isn’t dissatisfied in the exact same way as me is fooling themselves, no one could have a different experience from me) and deeply self-pitying (oh noo I’m a literal criminal in this society because someone had a surprised reaction to my dissatisfaction). > But you can't even say that out loud anymore, because that means "questioning the whole western ideology" and suddenly someone feels threatened, and myself becomes a criminal. What reality are you living in? The consensus in the west, online at least, seems to be that everything sucks and is getting worse. Personally I think that’s overwrought, but it’s certainly a sentiment that’s everywhere. It sounds like you are the one who’s struggling with the fact that some people disagree with you, which sounds like something you should be able to handle if you want to live a “wild, natural, and rough” life. > Western culture has become empty and fake - and I'm tired to explain the most obvious thing to so many people - and in the end, they don't believe you anyway. They really believe, they are part of something bigger, are very important and are going to be famous or something. Intellectual vanity and luxury and bragging. This is the embodiment of the meme of the guy in the corner at the party (“they don’t know…”) while everyone else is dancing happily. The fact that you feel that life in Austria is empty and fake actually does not mean that everyone else must be feeling the exact same thing and are just deluding themselves! The ability to understand that other people have different internal experiences than yourself is a really basic emotional skill. I’m sorry that you haven’t been happy in the west. I’m sure you’re far from the only one. But your unhappiness doesn’t mean that western culture is against “life itself”, whatever that even means.
- jahnu 3y ago
  The self pitying from people claiming “you can’t even say anything anymore” is almost comical at times. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wt8Dxpb3b6E https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wt8Dxpb3b6E
  - Vektorceraptor 3y ago
    I guess I have to take a stand on this. I don't care about social media, I said goodbye to it a long time ago. It is even a problem to measure or evaluate the world based on social media. So where does the feeling of people not feeling heard or understood come from? Well, firstly, because they like to be told first and foremost that this isn't true at all. You could say anything. But you overlook the simple fact that you didn't listen to the other person when you gave your reply. People neither listened to his reasons nor asked about them, nor were interested in them. Second, people who like to feel entitled or special have learned to simply ignore other people's problems. As Taylor Swift aptly said - 'shake it off'. This 'shacking off' occurs all the more, the deeper and more complex, i.e. more incomprehensible, your problems are to outsiders, so that an enormous effort is necessary to make them understandable. And also very compressed, because the time span of attention is also no more. On the one hand, it is often difficult to communicate, but on the other hand, interest in listening has also decreased. Thirdly, many people probably have similar problems and therefore intuitively avoid each other. Suddenly the company of others feels exhausting, perhaps demanding an imagined care that you cannot give because your own strength is not enough, or creating a fear of rejection because you need the care of others, but they also have the right to refuse this. I could go on with many other reasons...
Shorel 3y ago
> But you can't even say that out loud anymore, because that means "questioning the whole western ideology" and suddenly someone feels threatened, and myself becomes a criminal. That seems paranoid and irrational. I can say anything and criticize anyone from a Western country without issues (as long as the criticism is valid, not libel). I can't do that in China or Russia, which are the least Westernized countries. > edit: in Bulgaria, there is a common truth: life in Bulgaria is shit Life here is awesome. I welcome you to visit some places in Latin America for a real taste of shit life. You are really not aware of how good you have it. There is a whole different world outside of Europe. :)
tptacek 3y ago
You're dancing around it, and there are plausible alternate meanings for "cosmopolitans" and "postmodern cosmopolitans" and even, perhaps, "cosmopolitan intellectuals". But "rootless cosmopolitan" has an unambiguous antisemitic meaning.
- CodeMage 3y ago
  No, it doesn't. It might be unambiguous in some cultures or some circles, but it's not globally unambiguous. For example, I didn't even think of it until you pointed it out. I disagree with a lot of the sentiment in Vektorceraptor's comments, but I immediately grasped their meaning behind "rootless cosmopolitan". Maybe it's because I hail from the same region. I was born in what was Yugoslavia back then and is now Serbia, and I left when I was 20. I spent 14 years in South America, and another 10 here in the US, and I guess that makes me one of Vektorceraptor's "rootless cosmopolitans": someone who has been exposed to different cultures and can live in them, but doesn't really feel at home in any of them. So no, "rootless cosmopolitan" might sound to you like a dog whistle for "Jew", but it doesn't have to mean that on a culturally diverse site like this one. EDIT: It might be worth reflecting on the fact that English is not a native language for everyone here. When picking words, some of us might make a suboptimal choice. Ask yourself whether you would have had the same reaction if Vektorceraptor had picked "uprooted" instead of "rootless".
  - tptacek 3y ago
    It's not a western dog whistle, but rather a Russian one.
    - selimthegrim 3y ago
      Something similar did happen in Communist Yugoslavia https://www.pismenica.rs/danilo-kis-o-nacionalizmu/ https://www.pismenica.rs/danilo-kis-o-nacionalizmu/
      - CodeMage 3y ago
        Something similar to what? I'm confused. Thomas was asserting that "rootless cosmopolitan" was an antisemitic slur that Vektorceraptor deliberately applied to Kenarov. I asserted that the knowledge and usage of that expression is not nearly as universal as Thomas claimed. Thomas clarified that it's a Russian dog whistle. I've just finished reading the essay you linked there. How does it fit in this discussion?

iGo_by_Ganio 3y ago

[dead]

hydrok9 3y ago

I find your views very interesting and that they resonate with me. are you in fact planning to move back to Bulgaria?

Vektorceraptor 3y ago
Thank you. Feels good to know others think or feel alike. It's not concrete yet, but I'm thinking about it out loud. The last time I applied for a job, I applied abroad. I don't feel fully ready to move to Bulgaria yet, but maybe later. Most of my childhood Bulgarian friends were in the UK for many years, and some have returned. Well, I don't know yet... but it sounds nice.

daemonk 3y ago

I appreciate the perspective. There appears to be a lot of commonalities between your viewpoint and themes of classic Russian literature.

woah 3y ago

> There are things that have now become impossible in the West. Simply expressing unsatisfaction has become a danger for the status quo or the state. What? Expressing unsatisfaction is one the primary genres of social media post.

bruce511 3y ago
Yes, social media seems to exist to create outrage. But so much of it seems to be outrage for outrage's sake. Like other things it seems to have no resonant permanence. it seems to be manufactured for a purpose, then abandoned, or worse, endlessly recycled. On the other hand, raising items of concern about some other things get enormous pushback (and quick down votes.) Things like- Does the military really need 777 billion dollars? Why are health-care outcomes so disparate? Why is the US so far behind socially (workers rights, maternity leave, et al)? Why is the answer to another school shooting more guns? Why is building housing in my neighbourhood so hard? How is our life and lifestyle contributing to climate change? Why does climate change even matter? In the US (and Europe etc) the comfortable middle class is so scared of change, any change at all, that they'll do anything to keep the status quo. And where there has been change there's a desire to rewind the political clock, to return to "happier times" (where, incidentally , wages were $10 a week, a detail lost in inflation discussions.) Change is scary. Suggesting things could change for the better scares a lot of people who are confortable-enough. So yes, Expressing dissatisfaction with certain things which seem to strike at the heart of that comfortableness is thus not OK. But clearly, since life is not perfect, we should create narratives explaining our current shortcomings. We need to blame -something- so better that we are presented with the issue (immigration! Gay people!) lest we start thinking for ourselves. So yes, social media is all about dissatisfaction, but it all seems terribly shallow, self-serving, and, dare I say it, manufactured.
- woah 3y ago
  Sounds like you're mad that some people online don't agree with your political opinions. Imagining that your personal politics are something that everyone would agree with if only the veil could be lifted and a mysterious "they" would stop suppressing the truth is the lowest form of political thought.

cstejerean 3y ago

> Just because you can't free yourself from your nihilistic mental wheel, you have to conjure up and condemn the entire collective. Herein lies the birth of all 'structural arguments', I claim, ad hoc. 'My dissatisfaction must have structural reasons, otherwise I wouldn't be dissatisfied.' > The west has become tame and sick, and I got exhausted of it. I don't fit in this society anymore, and I can't be productive under its conditions. I can't help but notice the connection here though, your complaints certainly sound like attempts to conjure up and condemn the entire collective to explain your dissatisfaction. It might be worth reflecting on that.

stickfigure 3y ago

I'm curious about your perspective, but I'm unable to understand these abstractions. Can you give me some examples? What fears of person A makes person B a criminal? What parts of western culture are "fake"? What do you mean by "fake"? Or by "tame and sick"? You sound a lot like Holden Caulfield - a quintessential part of Western Culture.

TaurenHunter 3y ago

Your post resonated with me and you have a well-structured description of this sentiment. Are there any books/articles that you can recommend about this issue?

UncleOxidant 3y ago

Replying as a 60yo American living in the Western part of the US (ie. I'm about as Westerner as it gets, I suppose)... > I claim that the West has forgotten what "home" means. This I mostly agree with. The America I'm familiar with is quite rootless. In fact rootlessness was encouraged even ("you should be willing to move to a new/better job"). It goes all the way back to manifest destiny - always be on the move. There's a temporary feeling about everything. Most of our buildings aren't intended to last centuries - they're intended to be knocked down when something more profitable comes along and that might happen just be in a few years. > Western culture has become empty and fake I agree with this as well. Style over substance. Confidence is valued over competence. > They really believe, they are part of something bigger, are very important and are going to be famous or something. But this part I don't agree with. I think if anything Americans in 2023 would like to feel like they're part of something bigger but that feeling has been lost for quite a while now. There's no shared vision of what America should be at this point like there mostly was 40 or 50 years ago. That common vision has shattered into a million pieces especially over the last 10 years or so. We're the most isolated people on earth. > There are things that have now become impossible in the West. Simply expressing unsatisfaction has become a danger for the status quo or the state. I don't think you've been listening. There's plenty of expressed dissatisfaction - I just did above. Social media is rife with dissatisfaction.

mikhael28 3y ago
Agreed on all points, though I would say that 'home' has very different meanings, for very different people.

bryananderson 3y ago

Sorry but I can’t stand when someone takes their own dissatisfaction (which is entirely valid, it’s your life after all) and generalizes it to a grand social theory in a way that is simultaneously immensely self-important (everyone who isn’t dissatisfied in the exact same way as me is fooling themselves, no one could have a different experience from me) and deeply self-pitying (oh noo I’m a literal criminal in this society because someone had a surprised reaction to my dissatisfaction). > But you can't even say that out loud anymore, because that means "questioning the whole western ideology" and suddenly someone feels threatened, and myself becomes a criminal. What reality are you living in? The consensus in the west, online at least, seems to be that everything sucks and is getting worse. Personally I think that’s overwrought, but it’s certainly a sentiment that’s everywhere. It sounds like you are the one who’s struggling with the fact that some people disagree with you, which sounds like something you should be able to handle if you want to live a “wild, natural, and rough” life. > Western culture has become empty and fake - and I'm tired to explain the most obvious thing to so many people - and in the end, they don't believe you anyway. They really believe, they are part of something bigger, are very important and are going to be famous or something. Intellectual vanity and luxury and bragging. This is the embodiment of the meme of the guy in the corner at the party (“they don’t know…”) while everyone else is dancing happily. The fact that you feel that life in Austria is empty and fake actually does not mean that everyone else must be feeling the exact same thing and are just deluding themselves! The ability to understand that other people have different internal experiences than yourself is a really basic emotional skill. I’m sorry that you haven’t been happy in the west. I’m sure you’re far from the only one. But your unhappiness doesn’t mean that western culture is against “life itself”, whatever that even means.

jahnu 3y ago
The self pitying from people claiming “you can’t even say anything anymore” is almost comical at times. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wt8Dxpb3b6E https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wt8Dxpb3b6E
- Vektorceraptor 3y ago
  I guess I have to take a stand on this. I don't care about social media, I said goodbye to it a long time ago. It is even a problem to measure or evaluate the world based on social media. So where does the feeling of people not feeling heard or understood come from? Well, firstly, because they like to be told first and foremost that this isn't true at all. You could say anything. But you overlook the simple fact that you didn't listen to the other person when you gave your reply. People neither listened to his reasons nor asked about them, nor were interested in them. Second, people who like to feel entitled or special have learned to simply ignore other people's problems. As Taylor Swift aptly said - 'shake it off'. This 'shacking off' occurs all the more, the deeper and more complex, i.e. more incomprehensible, your problems are to outsiders, so that an enormous effort is necessary to make them understandable. And also very compressed, because the time span of attention is also no more. On the one hand, it is often difficult to communicate, but on the other hand, interest in listening has also decreased. Thirdly, many people probably have similar problems and therefore intuitively avoid each other. Suddenly the company of others feels exhausting, perhaps demanding an imagined care that you cannot give because your own strength is not enough, or creating a fear of rejection because you need the care of others, but they also have the right to refuse this. I could go on with many other reasons...

Shorel 3y ago

> But you can't even say that out loud anymore, because that means "questioning the whole western ideology" and suddenly someone feels threatened, and myself becomes a criminal. That seems paranoid and irrational. I can say anything and criticize anyone from a Western country without issues (as long as the criticism is valid, not libel). I can't do that in China or Russia, which are the least Westernized countries. > edit: in Bulgaria, there is a common truth: life in Bulgaria is shit Life here is awesome. I welcome you to visit some places in Latin America for a real taste of shit life. You are really not aware of how good you have it. There is a whole different world outside of Europe. :)

tptacek 3y ago

You're dancing around it, and there are plausible alternate meanings for "cosmopolitans" and "postmodern cosmopolitans" and even, perhaps, "cosmopolitan intellectuals". But "rootless cosmopolitan" has an unambiguous antisemitic meaning.

CodeMage 3y ago
No, it doesn't. It might be unambiguous in some cultures or some circles, but it's not globally unambiguous. For example, I didn't even think of it until you pointed it out. I disagree with a lot of the sentiment in Vektorceraptor's comments, but I immediately grasped their meaning behind "rootless cosmopolitan". Maybe it's because I hail from the same region. I was born in what was Yugoslavia back then and is now Serbia, and I left when I was 20. I spent 14 years in South America, and another 10 here in the US, and I guess that makes me one of Vektorceraptor's "rootless cosmopolitans": someone who has been exposed to different cultures and can live in them, but doesn't really feel at home in any of them. So no, "rootless cosmopolitan" might sound to you like a dog whistle for "Jew", but it doesn't have to mean that on a culturally diverse site like this one. EDIT: It might be worth reflecting on the fact that English is not a native language for everyone here. When picking words, some of us might make a suboptimal choice. Ask yourself whether you would have had the same reaction if Vektorceraptor had picked "uprooted" instead of "rootless".
- tptacek 3y ago
  It's not a western dog whistle, but rather a Russian one.
  - selimthegrim 3y ago
    Something similar did happen in Communist Yugoslavia https://www.pismenica.rs/danilo-kis-o-nacionalizmu/ https://www.pismenica.rs/danilo-kis-o-nacionalizmu/
    - CodeMage 3y ago
      Something similar to what? I'm confused. Thomas was asserting that "rootless cosmopolitan" was an antisemitic slur that Vektorceraptor deliberately applied to Kenarov. I asserted that the knowledge and usage of that expression is not nearly as universal as Thomas claimed. Thomas clarified that it's a Russian dog whistle. I've just finished reading the essay you linked there. How does it fit in this discussion?