7 ms·

The author talks about many aspects of traveling in London as though they are novel. Signs to hold on to the handrail, or to report antisocial behaviour are no

The author talks about many aspects of traveling in London as though they are novel. Signs to hold on to the handrail, or to report antisocial behaviour are not new in London - and many famous styles of public information poster originate from this area, in particular, the Underground. The opening paragraphs suggest a level of paranoia, frankly.

3c0 3y ago
he did say he hadn’t been there for a while.
spoiler 3y ago
Yeah, the writing style is what I'd call "intentional, funny unhinged" and while the read was amusing, I also couldn't help but feel slightly worried for the author. Maybe they could use a few mental health counselling sessions (don't mean this in a snide way; therapy helped me a lot personally)
- Gigamouse 3y ago
  Therapy is great, but arguably the people who don't seem to notice all the surveillance and inauthenticity of corporate capitalism need it just as much
  - astrange 3y ago
    "Surveillance capitalism" can't matter that much - you can tell it's not making anyone rich because it's happening in the UK. If it worked, it'd be happening in countries whose economies are actually performing well.
- 127361 3y ago
  Very disturbing to read this, the author's article is in no way paranoid. That's what they did in the Soviet Union, if you went against the state ideology they would accuse you of having mental health problems [1]. It's the standard technique abusers use, whether it's a totalitarian government or an abusive parent or spouse. In many cases psychiatry itself can and is a tool of the state, except for obvious things like psychosis and other severe disorders, the diagnostic criteria are often arbitrary and many of the behaviors can be explained by individuals having gone through extreme hardship, abuse or poverty instead. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_schizophrenia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_schizophrenia
  - spoiler 3y ago
    I've grown up in an abusive house hold, so I'm familiar with gaslighting. Also, I'm not trying to call the author schizophrenic, or insane. My mention about the author benefitting from therapy was mostly around some of the exaggerated emotional reactions the author expressed; they felt too guttural for what they were reacting to. On a second read through, I actually don't think they need therapy. I think they were very intentional in their populist tone and exaggerated style to elicit emotional responses in the reader (as any good writer does, I suppose). I agree with a lot what was said, but also a few of the claims feel only critical for the sake of being cynical (eg some of the underground posters and the contactless commentary mainly). So, it doesn't do the article as a whole any favours.
    - 127361 3y ago
      I feel the author's reactions are still in the range of behavior that shouldn't be considered abnormal. I feel that saying people have to go to therapy for expression negative emotions at such things, is unfairly pathologizing people. We are creating a homogenized "correct behavior" for everyone, removing any space for differences, that are a natural part of the human condition. If we neutralized any "paranoia" over these dystopian cameras/posters/etc., then we would not have any resistance or protest in society, so things would get rapidly worse. Many decades ago, having millions of CCTV cameras in London, together with posters encouraging people to rat on each other, would be considered absolutely dystopian, and there would be widespread protests and/riots if they were suddenly introduced. However, because it has crept up on the population so slowly, people became accustomed to it, and few now protest. Thus explaining the situation we are in now.
- bigfudge 3y ago
  I know you’re trying to be kind, but I honestly think this response is part of the discourse the author outlines. Individualising distress and pathologising the rejection of surveillance capitalism as paranoia troubles me. Funnily, left London in 2004, feeling much the same as the author does now. The direction of travel was clear, and the inauthenticity and authoritarianism inherent in corporate ownership of all public space was becoming apparent event back then. 2005 bombings just made it worse, because individuals were also rightly fearful and I think this accelerated acquiescence to surveillance and control of public spaces even further and faster. What is odd about European cities now is that the energy of youth is completely bound up in the ways the author describes. The only authentic communities are smaller ones, away from the periphery. But unlike in the past these are not dominated by young people and youth cultures, and so lack some of the energy and excitement that London or NY in the 70s seem to have had.
wkat4242 3y ago
True, same with "Mind the gap". There's always been a strong raised finger there. Similar to Holland though that's more because of its Calvinist influences, sadly. However ubiquitous face and iris recognition around the airport is pretty bad IMO. I doubt this would be permitted in the EU. Of course since Brexit all privacy brakes have come off and it's now a free for all for big commerce. I think this is the main thing the article refers to. I do see more anti commerce sentiment here in Barcelona as the author mentions though it's important to realise most of it comes from extremist groups like antifa. Not exactly mainstream. But yes personally would avoid London nowadays. Not just because the ubiquitous surveillance but because of the Brexit mentality. They don't want us there, I don't want to deal with them. I even refused to go to a Google business conference there. If they want me they can host it in the EU, ideally the Schengen zone so not Dublin either. The only Brits I still socialise with are expats who are heavily anti Brexit. They're ok. Like myself they have heavily dissociated from their own country. I'm Dutch myself but I'm also competently unaligned with their politics (especially now with the extreme right becoming huge there)
- n4r9 3y ago
  London still wants you! The city as a whole voted 60% to Remain. Every single borough except Sutton (arguably more culturally Surrey than London) was majority remain. City of London was 75% Remain, Westminster was 69% Remain. Source: https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/research-reports-and-data/our-reports-and-data-past-elections-and-referendums/results-and-turnout-eu-referendum/eu-referendum-results-region-london https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/research-reports-and-...
  - tambourine_man 3y ago
    60% total is still pretty tight. We are almost evenly split as a society, all across the world. Weird and sad.
    - cassianoleal 3y ago
      It's 50% more remain in relation to leave. It's not tight at all.
mytailorisrich 3y ago
Yes, and those campaigns by public authorities have little to do with "capitalism", in fact they remind me of slogans in socialists countries. In any case, they can be over the top and really annoying. In some stations they have presence detectors at the bottom and top of each flight of stairs so that as soon as someone passes through they are told to "hold the handrail and take care"... Which means that when walking from entrance to platform you may be told 4 times to "hold the handrail and take care". At this point I just want to rip out the handrail and destroy the loudspeakers in a rage... But I am conflicted because TfL also keeps telling me that I should be kind [1], patient [2], and considerate to others [3], plus someone might report me [4] Perhaps there is a reason Black Mirror is British. [1] https://images.app.goo.gl/kKDe7E2GzKFdefVa8 https://images.app.goo.gl/kKDe7E2GzKFdefVa8 [2] https://images.app.goo.gl/octoWDN7uYuPSMTz5 https://images.app.goo.gl/octoWDN7uYuPSMTz5 [3] https://images.app.goo.gl/sX7rYKRxVk8Kq9Be8 https://images.app.goo.gl/sX7rYKRxVk8Kq9Be8 [4] https://images.app.goo.gl/y4uDdmjruySP22mb8 https://images.app.goo.gl/y4uDdmjruySP22mb8
- Symbiote 3y ago
  "Hold the handrail", "mind the gap" and so on are there because falling down escalators and falling between train and platform are the leading cause of injury on public transport in Britain, especially London. There are also signs advising people not to run down stairs. I think "MIND THE GAP!" (when a recorded male voice pretty much shouts it[1]) on the platforms with the sharp curves and wide gaps is fine — it's unusual, and especially useful for visually impaired people. The more common "Mind the gap" with the female voice is worse than useless, as it is used far too often, when there is barely any gap, and detracts from the significance of the other announcement. "Hold the handrail" is ridiculous; we should expect some personal responsibility from people. I laughed the first time I heard this, 15 years ago in China, and was disappointed some years later when I first heard it in Britain. It would be interesting to see statistics on accidents before and after these messages were introduced. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Em-xoAtSM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Em-xoAtSM
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    "Hold the handrail" is thoroughly ignored so the effect is going to be zero. It's even more ridiculous when you realise that it is simply impossible to do in a crowd, anyway. Either it's the nanny-state gone mad (with people trying to justify their jobs), or it's the lawyers who advised that "that way they can't sue us". Either is plausible in 21st century London.
teamonkey 3y ago
It is weird though. I’m British, but coming back to the UK after some time living abroad was a shock: how many cameras there are monitoring every moment of your life and how many signs there are telling you what to do, what not to do, how to behave, keep off the grass, stand to the right, report all wrongdoings, no loitering, no waiting, wait here (1 hour max). When first encountering it it feels dystopian, oppressive. You get used to it living here, to the point you don’t notice it, but it’s not normal.
- Gigamouse 3y ago
  Well put
- 127361 3y ago
  Early stages of a police state or totalitarian regime. Consider the mass surveillance of all our communications, that's an absolute hallmark[1] of a police state. And getting people to rat each other out as well, that's shocking. Even worse is how people have accepted this as "normal" and necessary for their safety. Well, if they will imprison you for the act of reading certain texts and/or web sites here in the UK, then what do you expect, that's a de facto police state, and if the public finds it acceptable or necessary, it shows how much the frog has slowly boiled over the decades. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance "It is the single most indicative distinguishing trait of totalitarian regimes."
  - ajsnigrutin 3y ago
    And not just surveillance, but also direct involvement of the police. There was a video clip about russia arresting people for stuff on social media, and how supposedly 400 people got visited by police 'that year' which seems a lot, but in comparison, 3300 got visited by the police in UK. (this got posted to skeptics stackexchange, where it was established that the year in question was 2016: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/54123/were-over-3000-persons-arrested-in-britain-for-social-media-posts-in-2018 https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/54123/were-over... )
n4r9 3y ago
I think you're missing the point. This issue is not the mere existence of information signs, but their relationship with major commercial interests. And even if it's not novel, it can be perceived as a novel experience by someone who has lived elsewhere for a while.
Gigamouse 3y ago
Admittedly the title is 'what seven hours in London teach...' rather than 'what seven hours in every city of the world teaches' There's nothing in the piece that says 'this only happens in London'
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago
  But it doesn't. I'm from the edge of the balkans, and have travelled all over europe, and only London gave me the feeling of some future dystopia (exaggerated, but pointing that way), where they tell you to mind the gap, keep to the left, see something, say something, cameras everywhere, and a news story every now and then about someone getting arrested because someone got offended. Compare that to eg. the Balkans, where noone tells you anything and everything is chaotic in a "manage it yourself" way, similar with eg. spain and france, and the "everyone is adhering to a set of rules, but noone will tell you, unless you figure it out yourself" going from austria to germany and north, with some exceptions here and there (noone will "officially" tell you not to walk on the bike lanes in eg. amsterdam, but many locals may yell at you if you do).
  - Gigamouse 3y ago
    Agreed - my response was deliberately exaggerated simply to point out that the article wasn't claiming to cover the entire world
  - Fluorescence 3y ago
    Most of this stuff is for tourists. Other cities won't face this to the same degree - but it's exacerbated in London because it's such a popular destination yet with antiquated infrastructure due to such structures being built so ahead of the curve - thus surprising platform gaps and corridors far too narrow to support massive commuter flows of a metropolis that has grown so much. An aimless tourist could be knocked over if they don't follow conventions or aren't made aware of unusual hazards that more recently built transport systems won't have.
  - seanhandley 3y ago
    So the key difference is that in London the rules are more clearly shared for newcomers?
jules-jules 3y ago
It’s only paranoia as long as you’re on the side of the guys behind the camera, this can quickly change say if for example you are attending a rally that condemns the ongoing Genozide in Gaza [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37997246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37997246

3c0 3y ago

he did say he hadn’t been there for a while.

spoiler 3y ago

Yeah, the writing style is what I'd call "intentional, funny unhinged" and while the read was amusing, I also couldn't help but feel slightly worried for the author. Maybe they could use a few mental health counselling sessions (don't mean this in a snide way; therapy helped me a lot personally)

Gigamouse 3y ago
Therapy is great, but arguably the people who don't seem to notice all the surveillance and inauthenticity of corporate capitalism need it just as much
- astrange 3y ago
  "Surveillance capitalism" can't matter that much - you can tell it's not making anyone rich because it's happening in the UK. If it worked, it'd be happening in countries whose economies are actually performing well.
127361 3y ago
Very disturbing to read this, the author's article is in no way paranoid. That's what they did in the Soviet Union, if you went against the state ideology they would accuse you of having mental health problems [1]. It's the standard technique abusers use, whether it's a totalitarian government or an abusive parent or spouse. In many cases psychiatry itself can and is a tool of the state, except for obvious things like psychosis and other severe disorders, the diagnostic criteria are often arbitrary and many of the behaviors can be explained by individuals having gone through extreme hardship, abuse or poverty instead. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_schizophrenia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_schizophrenia
- spoiler 3y ago
  I've grown up in an abusive house hold, so I'm familiar with gaslighting. Also, I'm not trying to call the author schizophrenic, or insane. My mention about the author benefitting from therapy was mostly around some of the exaggerated emotional reactions the author expressed; they felt too guttural for what they were reacting to. On a second read through, I actually don't think they need therapy. I think they were very intentional in their populist tone and exaggerated style to elicit emotional responses in the reader (as any good writer does, I suppose). I agree with a lot what was said, but also a few of the claims feel only critical for the sake of being cynical (eg some of the underground posters and the contactless commentary mainly). So, it doesn't do the article as a whole any favours.
  - 127361 3y ago
    I feel the author's reactions are still in the range of behavior that shouldn't be considered abnormal. I feel that saying people have to go to therapy for expression negative emotions at such things, is unfairly pathologizing people. We are creating a homogenized "correct behavior" for everyone, removing any space for differences, that are a natural part of the human condition. If we neutralized any "paranoia" over these dystopian cameras/posters/etc., then we would not have any resistance or protest in society, so things would get rapidly worse. Many decades ago, having millions of CCTV cameras in London, together with posters encouraging people to rat on each other, would be considered absolutely dystopian, and there would be widespread protests and/riots if they were suddenly introduced. However, because it has crept up on the population so slowly, people became accustomed to it, and few now protest. Thus explaining the situation we are in now.
bigfudge 3y ago
I know you’re trying to be kind, but I honestly think this response is part of the discourse the author outlines. Individualising distress and pathologising the rejection of surveillance capitalism as paranoia troubles me. Funnily, left London in 2004, feeling much the same as the author does now. The direction of travel was clear, and the inauthenticity and authoritarianism inherent in corporate ownership of all public space was becoming apparent event back then. 2005 bombings just made it worse, because individuals were also rightly fearful and I think this accelerated acquiescence to surveillance and control of public spaces even further and faster. What is odd about European cities now is that the energy of youth is completely bound up in the ways the author describes. The only authentic communities are smaller ones, away from the periphery. But unlike in the past these are not dominated by young people and youth cultures, and so lack some of the energy and excitement that London or NY in the 70s seem to have had.

wkat4242 3y ago

True, same with "Mind the gap". There's always been a strong raised finger there. Similar to Holland though that's more because of its Calvinist influences, sadly. However ubiquitous face and iris recognition around the airport is pretty bad IMO. I doubt this would be permitted in the EU. Of course since Brexit all privacy brakes have come off and it's now a free for all for big commerce. I think this is the main thing the article refers to. I do see more anti commerce sentiment here in Barcelona as the author mentions though it's important to realise most of it comes from extremist groups like antifa. Not exactly mainstream. But yes personally would avoid London nowadays. Not just because the ubiquitous surveillance but because of the Brexit mentality. They don't want us there, I don't want to deal with them. I even refused to go to a Google business conference there. If they want me they can host it in the EU, ideally the Schengen zone so not Dublin either. The only Brits I still socialise with are expats who are heavily anti Brexit. They're ok. Like myself they have heavily dissociated from their own country. I'm Dutch myself but I'm also competently unaligned with their politics (especially now with the extreme right becoming huge there)

n4r9 3y ago
London still wants you! The city as a whole voted 60% to Remain. Every single borough except Sutton (arguably more culturally Surrey than London) was majority remain. City of London was 75% Remain, Westminster was 69% Remain. Source: https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/research-reports-and-data/our-reports-and-data-past-elections-and-referendums/results-and-turnout-eu-referendum/eu-referendum-results-region-london https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/research-reports-and-...
- tambourine_man 3y ago
  60% total is still pretty tight. We are almost evenly split as a society, all across the world. Weird and sad.
  - cassianoleal 3y ago
    It's 50% more remain in relation to leave. It's not tight at all.

mytailorisrich 3y ago

Yes, and those campaigns by public authorities have little to do with "capitalism", in fact they remind me of slogans in socialists countries. In any case, they can be over the top and really annoying. In some stations they have presence detectors at the bottom and top of each flight of stairs so that as soon as someone passes through they are told to "hold the handrail and take care"... Which means that when walking from entrance to platform you may be told 4 times to "hold the handrail and take care". At this point I just want to rip out the handrail and destroy the loudspeakers in a rage... But I am conflicted because TfL also keeps telling me that I should be kind [1], patient [2], and considerate to others [3], plus someone might report me [4] Perhaps there is a reason Black Mirror is British. [1] https://images.app.goo.gl/kKDe7E2GzKFdefVa8 https://images.app.goo.gl/kKDe7E2GzKFdefVa8 [2] https://images.app.goo.gl/octoWDN7uYuPSMTz5 https://images.app.goo.gl/octoWDN7uYuPSMTz5 [3] https://images.app.goo.gl/sX7rYKRxVk8Kq9Be8 https://images.app.goo.gl/sX7rYKRxVk8Kq9Be8 [4] https://images.app.goo.gl/y4uDdmjruySP22mb8 https://images.app.goo.gl/y4uDdmjruySP22mb8

Symbiote 3y ago
"Hold the handrail", "mind the gap" and so on are there because falling down escalators and falling between train and platform are the leading cause of injury on public transport in Britain, especially London. There are also signs advising people not to run down stairs. I think "MIND THE GAP!" (when a recorded male voice pretty much shouts it[1]) on the platforms with the sharp curves and wide gaps is fine — it's unusual, and especially useful for visually impaired people. The more common "Mind the gap" with the female voice is worse than useless, as it is used far too often, when there is barely any gap, and detracts from the significance of the other announcement. "Hold the handrail" is ridiculous; we should expect some personal responsibility from people. I laughed the first time I heard this, 15 years ago in China, and was disappointed some years later when I first heard it in Britain. It would be interesting to see statistics on accidents before and after these messages were introduced. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Em-xoAtSM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Em-xoAtSM
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  "Hold the handrail" is thoroughly ignored so the effect is going to be zero. It's even more ridiculous when you realise that it is simply impossible to do in a crowd, anyway. Either it's the nanny-state gone mad (with people trying to justify their jobs), or it's the lawyers who advised that "that way they can't sue us". Either is plausible in 21st century London.

teamonkey 3y ago

It is weird though. I’m British, but coming back to the UK after some time living abroad was a shock: how many cameras there are monitoring every moment of your life and how many signs there are telling you what to do, what not to do, how to behave, keep off the grass, stand to the right, report all wrongdoings, no loitering, no waiting, wait here (1 hour max). When first encountering it it feels dystopian, oppressive. You get used to it living here, to the point you don’t notice it, but it’s not normal.

Gigamouse 3y ago
Well put
127361 3y ago
Early stages of a police state or totalitarian regime. Consider the mass surveillance of all our communications, that's an absolute hallmark[1] of a police state. And getting people to rat each other out as well, that's shocking. Even worse is how people have accepted this as "normal" and necessary for their safety. Well, if they will imprison you for the act of reading certain texts and/or web sites here in the UK, then what do you expect, that's a de facto police state, and if the public finds it acceptable or necessary, it shows how much the frog has slowly boiled over the decades. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance "It is the single most indicative distinguishing trait of totalitarian regimes."
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago
  And not just surveillance, but also direct involvement of the police. There was a video clip about russia arresting people for stuff on social media, and how supposedly 400 people got visited by police 'that year' which seems a lot, but in comparison, 3300 got visited by the police in UK. (this got posted to skeptics stackexchange, where it was established that the year in question was 2016: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/54123/were-over-3000-persons-arrested-in-britain-for-social-media-posts-in-2018 https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/54123/were-over... )

n4r9 3y ago

I think you're missing the point. This issue is not the mere existence of information signs, but their relationship with major commercial interests. And even if it's not novel, it can be perceived as a novel experience by someone who has lived elsewhere for a while.

Gigamouse 3y ago

Admittedly the title is 'what seven hours in London teach...' rather than 'what seven hours in every city of the world teaches' There's nothing in the piece that says 'this only happens in London'

ajsnigrutin 3y ago
But it doesn't. I'm from the edge of the balkans, and have travelled all over europe, and only London gave me the feeling of some future dystopia (exaggerated, but pointing that way), where they tell you to mind the gap, keep to the left, see something, say something, cameras everywhere, and a news story every now and then about someone getting arrested because someone got offended. Compare that to eg. the Balkans, where noone tells you anything and everything is chaotic in a "manage it yourself" way, similar with eg. spain and france, and the "everyone is adhering to a set of rules, but noone will tell you, unless you figure it out yourself" going from austria to germany and north, with some exceptions here and there (noone will "officially" tell you not to walk on the bike lanes in eg. amsterdam, but many locals may yell at you if you do).
- Gigamouse 3y ago
  Agreed - my response was deliberately exaggerated simply to point out that the article wasn't claiming to cover the entire world
- Fluorescence 3y ago
  Most of this stuff is for tourists. Other cities won't face this to the same degree - but it's exacerbated in London because it's such a popular destination yet with antiquated infrastructure due to such structures being built so ahead of the curve - thus surprising platform gaps and corridors far too narrow to support massive commuter flows of a metropolis that has grown so much. An aimless tourist could be knocked over if they don't follow conventions or aren't made aware of unusual hazards that more recently built transport systems won't have.
- seanhandley 3y ago
  So the key difference is that in London the rules are more clearly shared for newcomers?

jules-jules 3y ago

It’s only paranoia as long as you’re on the side of the guys behind the camera, this can quickly change say if for example you are attending a rally that condemns the ongoing Genozide in Gaza [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37997246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37997246