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Toshiba's crash from grace is the poster boy of everything that is wrong with Japan. Lest we forget, Toshiba invented NAND flash only for them and Japan (namel

Toshiba's crash from grace is the poster boy of everything that is wrong with Japan. Lest we forget, Toshiba invented NAND flash only for them and Japan (namely the patent office) to throw it out the window for the likes of Intel and Sandisk to pick it up and create an entire industry. There is perhaps no better time to say that, nothing of value was lost here.

bamboozled 3y ago
Toshiba's crash from grace is the poster boy of everything that is wrong with Japan. Might need to elaborate a little ? Such a sweeping statement.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  Japanese people are very talented, but that also means they oftentimes can't understand the value of inventions and technology. Read up on how Toshiba treated NAND flash's inventor, Fujio Masuoka[1][2]; Toshiba and Japan at-large can't realize a golden egg if their lives depended on it. This combined with an introverted national culture that encourages the various companies fight each other (eg: Toshiba vs. Sony vs. Panasonic) rather than stand together and face the global market, and Japan has lost nearly every single thing they once achieved the top spot in. Government corruption, as was the case here, is icing on the cake. I say again: Nothing of value was lost here; any value Toshiba had they already threw away decades ago. Also, I'm Japanese. I call dibs when it comes to (justifiably!) trash talking my heritage. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujio_Masuoka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujio_Masuoka [2]: Masuoka and colleagues presented the invention of NOR flash in 1984, and then NAND flash at the IEEE 1987 International Electron Devices Meeting (IEDM) held in San Francisco. Toshiba commercially launched NAND flash memory in 1987. Toshiba gave Masuoka a few hundred dollar bonus for the invention, and later tried to demote him. But it was American company Intel which made billions of dollars in sales on related technology. Toshiba press department told Forbes that it was Intel that invented flash memory.
  - Tade0 3y ago
    > Toshiba press department told Forbes that it was Intel that invented flash memory. What? Why?
    - IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
      The culture at Toshiba was don’t stand out. Just show up put in long hours & do what your superiors want. The storage executives DID NOT WANT a new technology. They were content with spinning disks. Do not rock the boat, put in your 20 years quietly, retire & maybe come back with a get a consulting job there if lucky. The Keiretsu based structure bred complacency & selling average products to each other. As innovation technology in Silicon Valley skyrocketed, Toshiba made slideware & agreements that offered no tangible value. They would talk about the cloud, sign agreements with IBM but have zero real budget for implementation. Instead they would focus on continuing to build and sell non competitive solutions that meant divisions were ordered to keep making non competitive products built by thousands of engineers at a loss. The board cooking the books sealed their fate.
      - nonbirithm 3y ago
        > The culture at Toshiba was don’t stand out. Just show up put in long hours & do what your superiors want. The storage executives DID NOT WANT a new technology. They were content with spinning disks. Do not rock the boat, put in your 20 years quietly, retire & maybe come back with a get a consulting job there if lucky. This sort of culture could explain why Sony still sells $1000 digital Walkmen and luxury Android devices with a headphone jack.
      - Dalewyn 3y ago
        >The culture at Toshiba was don’t stand out. That applies to all of Japan, not just Toshiba. "Nails that stick out will be hammered in." (出る杭は打たれる。)[1] is an age old saying in Japan; those who stand out or are otherwise different from the masses will be forced into compliance. This cultural tradition has stifled many Japanese attempts at innovating, because doing something new is different from the status quo. [1]: https://jisho.org/search/%E5%87%BA%E3%82%8B%E6%9D%AD%E3%81%AF%E6%89%93%E3%81%9F%E3%82%8C%E3%82%8B https://jisho.org/search/%E5%87%BA%E3%82%8B%E6%9D%AD%E3%81%A...
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Toshiba invented NAND flash only for them and Japan (namely the patent office) to throw it out the window for the likes of Intel and Sandisk to pick it up and create an entire industry. And Kodak invented the digital camera only for Canon and Nikon to steal their lunch. And Xerox invented the GUI and let Apple steal their lunch. And GM invented the EV1, the world's first mass produced EV and then let Tesla and BYD steal their lunch. And IBM invented the PC and ... you get the point already. Same with HP, SUN, SGI, Cisco, Blackberry, Nokia, Intel, etc insert your favorite $EXAMPLE here. Google is also on a similar path. It's not a country problem, it's a "big and old company problem", which has fossilized and lacks future vision so stays conservative and slowly atrophies.
- toyg 3y ago
  I agree, but with the addition that Japanese society is so structurally imbalanced towards "big and old companies" that the problem is significantly amplified.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    That's not just a Japan problem, but a 'most of the industrialized world' problem: Germany, Italy, France, Canada, etc. They all had wealthy growing industries back in the days when coal, steel and fossil fuel vehicle manufacturing was hot, but failed to create, or invest and expand into the new ones, mainly IT, also known here as 'tech'. Only the US has managed to avoid this trap "thanks" to its lack of industry unions and social policies, coupled with a free market economy, start-up friendly tax system, and strong VC culture focused on disrupting existing players by throwing big money at new risky ideas. While the VC investment culture and focus on disrupting existing players is non existent in most other countries, coupled with the stronger social policies and unions, like in Europe for example, means there's a lot of political pressure (and lobbying!) to support the existing big old established players that contribute to the economy and employ tens of thousands of workers, to keep the status quo, no matter how antiquated and stagnating they are, instead of letting the free market run its course and letting them slowly whither die and focus instead on creating new businesses and industries in their place. This is also compounded in some of the countries I listed above by the ageing demographics who's retirement prospects are tied to the old declining industries(like in Germany), meaning their votes, government policies and financial aid will focus on keeping those old declining industries on life support for as long as possible, instead of focusing on supporting newer industries instead at the expense of the older ones. It's what the people vote for. Exceptions would be Singapore, Switzerland, and some of the UK-Ireland, Nordic and BeNeLux countries that have a strong education system focused on research and innovation and a business friendly tax and legal system for VC investors and who's population isn't too invested and entrenched in old declining industries.
mobilio 3y ago
Same happens also with 1.8" HDDs. They created it but don't know how to market it. At same time Steve Jobs and his right hands was at Japan manufacturers so they can see about their technology. And someone shows to them that disk... they was finally found missing component for an iPod.
1n3nt0r 3y ago
Certainly accounting scandals are bad. I am sure there are shenanigans being done by quite a few Japanese companies. That said, activist investors, the root cause, are a plague. Generally they want to boost short term profit at the expense of the longer-term. They are generally not interested in investing in the future rather cost cutting. Certainly most large companies could do with more efficient allocation of spending, but the US / western drive for short-term shareholder value is anathema to the good of the company longer term.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  This is specifically Japanese management styles and social culture at play. The meme of "western short-term corporate thinking" doesn't apply here. Kioxia, formerly Toshiba Memory, is flourishing under new western management after they were freed from Toshiba and Japan's ineptitude.
  - fomine3 3y ago
    Toshiba's Flash memory division had been fine even under Toshiba and as Kioxia too. Why Toshiba sold it is because they need money, to fill nuclear division's loss. Rather, they are now in danger due to current Flash memory market situation.
- IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
  Corruption by senior management doomed the company to continue down a path of failure. Toshiba desired to not cause change and market disruption was hated by Japanese business culture. Eventually inaction & fear led to destruction. Quite sad really.

bamboozled 3y ago

Toshiba's crash from grace is the poster boy of everything that is wrong with Japan. Might need to elaborate a little ? Such a sweeping statement.

Dalewyn 3y ago
Japanese people are very talented, but that also means they oftentimes can't understand the value of inventions and technology. Read up on how Toshiba treated NAND flash's inventor, Fujio Masuoka[1][2]; Toshiba and Japan at-large can't realize a golden egg if their lives depended on it. This combined with an introverted national culture that encourages the various companies fight each other (eg: Toshiba vs. Sony vs. Panasonic) rather than stand together and face the global market, and Japan has lost nearly every single thing they once achieved the top spot in. Government corruption, as was the case here, is icing on the cake. I say again: Nothing of value was lost here; any value Toshiba had they already threw away decades ago. Also, I'm Japanese. I call dibs when it comes to (justifiably!) trash talking my heritage. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujio_Masuoka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujio_Masuoka [2]: Masuoka and colleagues presented the invention of NOR flash in 1984, and then NAND flash at the IEEE 1987 International Electron Devices Meeting (IEDM) held in San Francisco. Toshiba commercially launched NAND flash memory in 1987. Toshiba gave Masuoka a few hundred dollar bonus for the invention, and later tried to demote him. But it was American company Intel which made billions of dollars in sales on related technology. Toshiba press department told Forbes that it was Intel that invented flash memory.
- Tade0 3y ago
  > Toshiba press department told Forbes that it was Intel that invented flash memory. What? Why?
  - IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
    The culture at Toshiba was don’t stand out. Just show up put in long hours & do what your superiors want. The storage executives DID NOT WANT a new technology. They were content with spinning disks. Do not rock the boat, put in your 20 years quietly, retire & maybe come back with a get a consulting job there if lucky. The Keiretsu based structure bred complacency & selling average products to each other. As innovation technology in Silicon Valley skyrocketed, Toshiba made slideware & agreements that offered no tangible value. They would talk about the cloud, sign agreements with IBM but have zero real budget for implementation. Instead they would focus on continuing to build and sell non competitive solutions that meant divisions were ordered to keep making non competitive products built by thousands of engineers at a loss. The board cooking the books sealed their fate.
    - nonbirithm 3y ago
      > The culture at Toshiba was don’t stand out. Just show up put in long hours & do what your superiors want. The storage executives DID NOT WANT a new technology. They were content with spinning disks. Do not rock the boat, put in your 20 years quietly, retire & maybe come back with a get a consulting job there if lucky. This sort of culture could explain why Sony still sells $1000 digital Walkmen and luxury Android devices with a headphone jack.
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      >The culture at Toshiba was don’t stand out. That applies to all of Japan, not just Toshiba. "Nails that stick out will be hammered in." (出る杭は打たれる。)[1] is an age old saying in Japan; those who stand out or are otherwise different from the masses will be forced into compliance. This cultural tradition has stifled many Japanese attempts at innovating, because doing something new is different from the status quo. [1]: https://jisho.org/search/%E5%87%BA%E3%82%8B%E6%9D%AD%E3%81%AF%E6%89%93%E3%81%9F%E3%82%8C%E3%82%8B https://jisho.org/search/%E5%87%BA%E3%82%8B%E6%9D%AD%E3%81%A...

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>Toshiba invented NAND flash only for them and Japan (namely the patent office) to throw it out the window for the likes of Intel and Sandisk to pick it up and create an entire industry. And Kodak invented the digital camera only for Canon and Nikon to steal their lunch. And Xerox invented the GUI and let Apple steal their lunch. And GM invented the EV1, the world's first mass produced EV and then let Tesla and BYD steal their lunch. And IBM invented the PC and ... you get the point already. Same with HP, SUN, SGI, Cisco, Blackberry, Nokia, Intel, etc insert your favorite $EXAMPLE here. Google is also on a similar path. It's not a country problem, it's a "big and old company problem", which has fossilized and lacks future vision so stays conservative and slowly atrophies.

toyg 3y ago
I agree, but with the addition that Japanese society is so structurally imbalanced towards "big and old companies" that the problem is significantly amplified.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  That's not just a Japan problem, but a 'most of the industrialized world' problem: Germany, Italy, France, Canada, etc. They all had wealthy growing industries back in the days when coal, steel and fossil fuel vehicle manufacturing was hot, but failed to create, or invest and expand into the new ones, mainly IT, also known here as 'tech'. Only the US has managed to avoid this trap "thanks" to its lack of industry unions and social policies, coupled with a free market economy, start-up friendly tax system, and strong VC culture focused on disrupting existing players by throwing big money at new risky ideas. While the VC investment culture and focus on disrupting existing players is non existent in most other countries, coupled with the stronger social policies and unions, like in Europe for example, means there's a lot of political pressure (and lobbying!) to support the existing big old established players that contribute to the economy and employ tens of thousands of workers, to keep the status quo, no matter how antiquated and stagnating they are, instead of letting the free market run its course and letting them slowly whither die and focus instead on creating new businesses and industries in their place. This is also compounded in some of the countries I listed above by the ageing demographics who's retirement prospects are tied to the old declining industries(like in Germany), meaning their votes, government policies and financial aid will focus on keeping those old declining industries on life support for as long as possible, instead of focusing on supporting newer industries instead at the expense of the older ones. It's what the people vote for. Exceptions would be Singapore, Switzerland, and some of the UK-Ireland, Nordic and BeNeLux countries that have a strong education system focused on research and innovation and a business friendly tax and legal system for VC investors and who's population isn't too invested and entrenched in old declining industries.

mobilio 3y ago

Same happens also with 1.8" HDDs. They created it but don't know how to market it. At same time Steve Jobs and his right hands was at Japan manufacturers so they can see about their technology. And someone shows to them that disk... they was finally found missing component for an iPod.

1n3nt0r 3y ago

Certainly accounting scandals are bad. I am sure there are shenanigans being done by quite a few Japanese companies. That said, activist investors, the root cause, are a plague. Generally they want to boost short term profit at the expense of the longer-term. They are generally not interested in investing in the future rather cost cutting. Certainly most large companies could do with more efficient allocation of spending, but the US / western drive for short-term shareholder value is anathema to the good of the company longer term.

Dalewyn 3y ago
This is specifically Japanese management styles and social culture at play. The meme of "western short-term corporate thinking" doesn't apply here. Kioxia, formerly Toshiba Memory, is flourishing under new western management after they were freed from Toshiba and Japan's ineptitude.
- fomine3 3y ago
  Toshiba's Flash memory division had been fine even under Toshiba and as Kioxia too. Why Toshiba sold it is because they need money, to fill nuclear division's loss. Rather, they are now in danger due to current Flash memory market situation.
IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
Corruption by senior management doomed the company to continue down a path of failure. Toshiba desired to not cause change and market disruption was hated by Japanese business culture. Eventually inaction & fear led to destruction. Quite sad really.