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It’s interesting how the various post-communist states in Central/Eastern Europe have played out since the 90s. Having lived here for roughly the last ~8 years,

It’s interesting how the various post-communist states in Central/Eastern Europe have played out since the 90s. Having lived here for roughly the last ~8 years, it seems to me that the ones succeeding the most are those which have a nearly universal negative appraisal of the communist era. Poland, for example, is on a pretty great trajectory and will probably be in the top 2-3 EU economies in a decade. The Soviet system was forced upon Poland and very few people look upon that era favorably. The break between eras was also fairly clean and without too much internal conflict. Compare that to some other states like Bulgaria or Ex-Yugoslavia, which have a more complicated memory of the communist era, and which also had a lot of conflict during the transition period. There is less of a pre-packaged “social imaginary” of what the country could be/used to be prior to the communist era - unlike Poland, which was occupied and spent a couple centuries building an oppositional identity during the Partitions/occupations.

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rightbyte 3y ago
Well, if people start missing the Soviet union, you probably got concerning problems. I think there is very little causality the other way around (missing the Soviet leads to problems).
- microtonal 3y ago
  I think it happens naturally in many places because older people tend to look at their history with rose tinted glasses. You forget the bad parts and treasure the good parts (which is not a bad psychological coping mechanism in itself). Add to that that the current world looks more complex as it becomes harder to keep up with age. We see that even in Western countries, where a sizable set of boomers want to restore the order of the good old 50 or 60ies and vote conservative or right wing populist parties.. The question is what do the younger generations think and what portion of the population they are.
  - incompatible 3y ago
    This period was a time of rebellion against the more authoritarian styles of government/society that existed in Western countries historically. I doubt that it's nostalgia for the 1960s that's driving modern conservativism. Perhaps any nostalgia for that period would be economic, in that it was still possible for a person (man) with one job to support a family and even own a house without much difficulty. Today, it seems like more of a struggle where people are working multiple jobs for decades to buy over-priced real estate. But modern conservatism doesn't seem to have any particular plan to go back to that kind of economy ... actually I'm not clear what it's actually trying to achieve.
    - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
      I certainly hear from many people on the left that it’s nostalgia for the religious and racial power structure that’s driving it, but I’m not sure I buy it. For the rank and file it might very well be economic, but the up and coming politicians seem to be more about money and power than any actual plan of governance.
      - incompatible 3y ago
        It's hard to imagine that there's a large group who are thinking that their lives will be so much better once abortion is banned and people are no longer allowed to dress as whichever gender they like. The irony about the economic issues is that tax rates and wealth redistribution were so much higher after WW2, and economic inequality was quite a bit less than today. The domination of right wing politics has been increasing inequality for decades, so why would anyone think that moving further to the right would help?
- keiferski 3y ago
  My point is more that in Poland, communism was always something of a foreign imposition by the Soviet Union, as the history (the Soviet invasion in 1939, plus Russian partitions before that) didn't lend itself to being happy about the situation. Bulgaria, on the other hand, was a close ally of the Soviet Union and more historically, of Russia (at least, more of an ally than Poland.) Yugoslavia wasn't in the Soviet sphere at all and was more "indigenous" and not as repressive as the Soviet states. So in Bulgaria and Ex-Yugoslavia, the memory of the communist era is not as clearly negative as it is in Poland. (Even if it's not positive, either – it's just more murky.)
  - f6v 3y ago
    > My point is more that in Poland, communism was always something of a foreign imposition by the Soviet Union I think communism or not is besides the point. Poland has a strong imperial tradition where the state spanned from Baltic almost to the Black Sea. They’ve been occupying and ruling for much longer than they’ve been in a socialist camp, and that had a much bigger impact on their national identity. And, as some others noted, being close to Germany gives Poland a big advantage. On the point of “communism”, take Romania as an example. I took a tour of the Presidential palace when I was in Bucharest. The guide was extremely negative about the communist era(when the palace itself was built), as many Romanians are. She went on and on how the dictator forced the palace construction and how terrible it was. Ironically, the palace is one of the few attraction in Bucharest. Walk just 200m away and it’s going to be rubble and desolation. In summary, I don’t think being anti-communist helps them all that much. > Bulgaria, on the other hand, was a close ally of the Soviet Union and more historically, of Russia Correct me if I’m wrong, but Bulgaria never was an economic powerhouse or major European power, unlike Poland. Between the Ottomans and other empires, they probably don’t have a history of building a strong economy. Being between rock and a hard place, not having resources, etc. probably contributed much more than what you say.
    - NewsyHacker 3y ago
      If you think Bucharest has few attractions besides Casa Poporului, you must have not had a good guidebook and really missed out. The city is full of interesting sites. Yes, the socialist era and the big earthquake damaged the city, but there are still great museums, churches, parks, and sites connected with the artists and men of letters of the 19th century and prewar era.
- paganel 3y ago
  People miss communism because communist governments provided normal people with stable jobs and guaranteed housing. Present day neo-liberal governments do not provide normal people with stable jobs and guaranteed housing. As such, you could say that choosing neo-liberal governments over communist governments doesn't make utilitarian sense for normal people, they should choose the governments that provide them with the basic necessities of life (i.e. housing and the guaranteed opportunity to earn one's living).
emptyfile 3y ago
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berdario 3y ago
> the ones succeeding the most are those which have a nearly universal negative appraisal of the communist era. A simpler explanation is that you swapped cause and effect: it's the countries where the economy struggled, where their people regret leaving their previous socialist economy. Why some economies struggled less than other is something that probably requires a lot more of country-by-country investigation, rather than generalisations... But I think that a common trend might be: How accessible (and geographically close) is the country to potential investors? Poland is close to Germany (and German investors could already find a German speaking minority, which could help bootstrap), likewise the Baltic republic are close to Finland and Sweden (Sweden is the first country to open an embassy in Estonia for example, which is arguably a prerequisite for a lot of investment in Estonia)
- toyg 3y ago
  So much this. Among other causes: Poland has a population of more than 35million people, so they were able to export a lot of workforce - which then generated significant remittance income, a fundamental driver of capital creation in poor economies. Bulgaria is less than 7 million, they obviously could not do it on the same scale; they also suffered from blocks on free circulation of workers, imposed on Romania and Bulgaria on accession precisely on the back of the experience with Poland. These blocks were only lifted about 10 years ago - and significantly increased the lag they already had versus the Baltic states (which were allowed to join much earlier, largely because of strategic German interests that did not apply to Romania and Bulgaria).
- deleted 3y ago
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- username332211 3y ago
  > A simpler explanation is that you swapped cause and effect: it's the countries where the economy struggled, where their people regret leaving their previous socialist economy. That's a simpler explanation, indeed. It's also wrong. Take the 2 examples of GP. In Bulgaria, the first elections after the first president after the fall of the dictatorship was Petar Mladenov, a former politburo member. The first parliamentary elections were similarly won by the communist party. In Yugoslavia, Milosevic remained leader for decades. In both cases the "nostalgia" had already set in before anyone had the chance to experience any I'll effects caused by democracy.
soundarana 3y ago
You also need to take religion into account - Catholic vs Orthodox. Orthodox countries are statistically more corrupt due to relation to God and it's translation to relation to authority. This is well researched.
- keiferski 3y ago
  That’s a pretty big claim and I’d be curious to see this research. I think you’d have a hard time untangling the communist effect (and earlier Ottoman effect) on Orthodox states to make any kind of deeper argument here.
  - soundarana 3y ago
    One sample: > Religion plays a significant role in influencing corruption levels [26,[29], [30], [31], [32], [33]]. While all religions encourage good moral conduct and ethical behavior, studies show that different religions are associated with varying levels of corruption. Notably, countries whose primary religions are hierarchical religions such as Catholic Christianity (Catholicism), Eastern Orthodox Christianity, and Islam, tend to have higher corruption levels, particularly in comparison to Protestant Christian countries [21,30,[34], [35], [36], [37]]. Supporting this claim, [30] found that corruption levels are lowest in countries with a Protestant majority and highest in countries with an Orthodox Christian majority. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10360949/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10360949/ To disentagle communism you can look at 1800. But there you have other confounders (colonialism, industrialization, feudalism...)
    - keiferski 3y ago
      But how many of these Orthodox countries have been Orthodox countries officially for more than a few decades? I’m struggling to think of any besides Greece.
      - NewsyHacker 3y ago
        Lebanon never got communism and the country was founded as largely a Catholic and Orthodox project, but it still has considerable corruption. (Not defending the OP's claim, just offering another data point.)
pjc50 3y ago
Some of ex-Yugoslavia (mostly Croatia) is doing rather well. But the Yugoslavs did have oppositional identity: it's just that their identities were the ones from before WW2 and even WW1. The lifting of Communism wound the clock straight back to the smoking gun of Gavrilo Princep, and the place tore itself apart over nationalism and religion again.
- keiferski 3y ago
  Yes Croatia (along with Slovenia) is a good example of a place that has a strong oppositional attitude toward the previous communist era. My impression is that Croatians want nothing to do with the Yugoslav era and much prefer to be an extension of Catholic Europe / the EU. Compare that to Serbia which is still trying to be unaligned, just as Yugoslavia was.
  - sensanaty 3y ago
    As a Serb, I wouldn't really describe Serbia as being unaligned/centrist. The corrupt politicians (I wouldn't dare call them people) in the gov't itself eat from the laps of Russia because the West = Evil for some nebulous reason that nobody quite understands anymore (slightly exaggerating, it's mostly to do with Kosovo and NATO involvement in the Yugo wars in the 90s but most of the youth don't give a shit about that anymore), while the youth, at least in the bigger cities, tend to support the EU and want Serbia to join them one day if we're to have any hope of advancement. At the same time they're also selling the country to the highest bidder, which for now are various Arab states like the UAE and the Saudis (lookup the Belgrade waterfront as an example), though there's also lots of Chinese money flowing into the pockets of the politicians as well. It's a horrifically corrupt country with legitimate war criminals and their leashed dogs (like current PM Vucic) still holding the reigns, trying to scam and bruteforce their way to as much money as they can muster before the inevitable happens. Meanwhile it experiences insane levels of brain drain as anyone sensible and with the means to (my parents in the 80s and myself and pretty much everyone else in my family now included) gets the fuck out and never looks back twice. Mind you, myself and most Serb diaspora I know don't want anything to do with the place. I was born and grew up in Indonesia and have visited Serbia a handful of times at most, so it's not a country I'd call home in any sense of the word. Even then, it still depresses me how hopeless the situation seems for anyone living there, as relayed to me by the few friends and family that are still stuck there with no way out.
ricardobayes 3y ago
I find this extremely true. Hungary has a neutral/good memory of Soviet times. Despite oppression, people felt more safe, because there were clear guidelines to life in general. If you adhered to them, you had a boring and regulated life. Everyone had a job (it was mandatory to work), and most people could afford to own a holiday home in the countryside. The "state" provided a life where you played along the rules and with minimum input you reaped maximum rewards. That's difficult to duplicate in a capitalistic scenario.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  Hungary was also way more liberal, than east germany for example, which practiced Stalinism till the very end (but still we have people nostalgic for that).
- noir_lord 3y ago
  As someone from the UK with a Hungarian partner - you pretty much nailed it. The older members of her family look back with fondness on that period in time which sounds strange to someone from a western country but I can sort of understand it - some of it is just the nostalgia of youth but some of it is I think caused because the freedom to make choices comes with the requirement to live with your choices. When the state keeps the safety rail up in where you live, where you work and how you spend your leisure time you have a clear path towards how to live your life - which is a comfortable if stifled existence. That said, the younger diaspora have a different way of looking at the world - many left to move to other EU countries because they wanted to avoid that nostalgia. That said I truly love visiting Hungary, the history, art and food is amazing, the people are warm and friendly and the countryside is staggeringly beautiful (as is the Balaton). It's certainly on my list of places to suggest people visit.
- m4rtink 3y ago
  Wasn't there a bloody rebellion against the Soviets in 1956 in Hungary?
  - NewsyHacker 3y ago
    The nostalgia is for the period after 1956. While the USSR and Warsaw Pact helpers succeeded in putting down the Hungarian uprising, they had to manage the discontent in the country so that it wouldn’t happen again. (Moreover, the Hungarian uprising was fed by frustration at specifically the Stalinist regime forced on Hungary, but Stalin’s death was eventually followed by a thaw even in the USSR.) So, for the remaining thirty years of socialism, Hungarians found it easier to travel abroad, publish literature or present art and music that was previously forbidden, and there was even some limited private enterprise. In rankings of which countries had it best in the Eastern Bloc, Hungary is usually at or near the top.
peoplefromibiza 3y ago
It's more complicated than that, you are ignoring some significant facts. First of all, Poland, your example, has major human rights issues. Even ignoring the LGBT issues (the so-called "lgbt free zones" in Poland), Poland has practically abolished abortion rights. Abortion has been denied to Ukrainian women refugees that were rape victims. Amnesty International: Access to abortion was further limited. Criminal charges were used to curtail freedom of expression. The authorities continued to erode the independence of the judiciary. Freedom of peaceful assembly was restricted. Violations of LGBTI rights persisted. Ironically under the Soviet Union Poland was one of the first Countries in the whole Europe (and probably the World) to have legal abortion, because communist countries did not have to please the Catholic Church (or any church). Under Vladimir Lenin, the Soviet Union became the first modern state in legalizing abortions on request — the law was first introduced in the Russian SFSR in 1920 So there's that. The second issue is nationalism, mainly far right nationalism, that spread throughout Europe from the former eastern block, that was once put under control by the Soviets. AfD in Germany, Sweden Democrats in Sweden (despite the name they have roots in white nationalist and neo-Nazi parties), Geert Wilders and his Party for Freedom in the Netherlands, Giorgia Meloni and FdI in Italy, Vox in Spain etc. etc. Look at Milošević for an example gone really bad, former leftist, he joined ranks with far-right nationalists extremists and things went south. A very popular representative right now in Europe is Viktor Orbán in Hungary, who took a more moderate approach but is still a far-right conservative dictator-wannabe who's causing lots of troubles to the EU. All of the aforementioned far-right parties in Europe are allied to, or close friends with, Orban. Third: the so called Visegrád Group formed by Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia, has strong ties to Germany, which in turn means they sustain German economy by importing their goods (combined, they are the second largest export market for Germany) and vice versa. Last, but not least, the EU has invested a lot of money in those Countries and sustained their economy to keep them in, even though their politics have raised more than an eyebrow. So it's like the end of WW2, by looking at the numbers one could think that the war produced the economic growth in Europe, but it actually was the Marshall Plan. p.s. Poland is far from being one of the 3 major economies in Europe
- puszczyk 3y ago
  > Ironically under the Soviet Union Poland was one of the first Countries in the whole Europe (and probably the World) to have legal abortion >> the law was first introduced in the Russian SFSR in 1920 Poland was never part of the Soviet Union. It became socialist and part of the eastern block only after WW2, so I doubt the legal abortion date. Also I mean, yeah the eastern block was quite progressive in some ways, but human rights were not one of them. Some of the gain were hugely offset by the millions of people who were tortured and killed by the system. Also much more blood thirsty in the Soviet Union than in Communist Poland.

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rightbyte 3y ago

Well, if people start missing the Soviet union, you probably got concerning problems. I think there is very little causality the other way around (missing the Soviet leads to problems).

microtonal 3y ago
I think it happens naturally in many places because older people tend to look at their history with rose tinted glasses. You forget the bad parts and treasure the good parts (which is not a bad psychological coping mechanism in itself). Add to that that the current world looks more complex as it becomes harder to keep up with age. We see that even in Western countries, where a sizable set of boomers want to restore the order of the good old 50 or 60ies and vote conservative or right wing populist parties.. The question is what do the younger generations think and what portion of the population they are.
- incompatible 3y ago
  This period was a time of rebellion against the more authoritarian styles of government/society that existed in Western countries historically. I doubt that it's nostalgia for the 1960s that's driving modern conservativism. Perhaps any nostalgia for that period would be economic, in that it was still possible for a person (man) with one job to support a family and even own a house without much difficulty. Today, it seems like more of a struggle where people are working multiple jobs for decades to buy over-priced real estate. But modern conservatism doesn't seem to have any particular plan to go back to that kind of economy ... actually I'm not clear what it's actually trying to achieve.
  - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
    I certainly hear from many people on the left that it’s nostalgia for the religious and racial power structure that’s driving it, but I’m not sure I buy it. For the rank and file it might very well be economic, but the up and coming politicians seem to be more about money and power than any actual plan of governance.
    - incompatible 3y ago
      It's hard to imagine that there's a large group who are thinking that their lives will be so much better once abortion is banned and people are no longer allowed to dress as whichever gender they like. The irony about the economic issues is that tax rates and wealth redistribution were so much higher after WW2, and economic inequality was quite a bit less than today. The domination of right wing politics has been increasing inequality for decades, so why would anyone think that moving further to the right would help?
keiferski 3y ago
My point is more that in Poland, communism was always something of a foreign imposition by the Soviet Union, as the history (the Soviet invasion in 1939, plus Russian partitions before that) didn't lend itself to being happy about the situation. Bulgaria, on the other hand, was a close ally of the Soviet Union and more historically, of Russia (at least, more of an ally than Poland.) Yugoslavia wasn't in the Soviet sphere at all and was more "indigenous" and not as repressive as the Soviet states. So in Bulgaria and Ex-Yugoslavia, the memory of the communist era is not as clearly negative as it is in Poland. (Even if it's not positive, either – it's just more murky.)
- f6v 3y ago
  > My point is more that in Poland, communism was always something of a foreign imposition by the Soviet Union I think communism or not is besides the point. Poland has a strong imperial tradition where the state spanned from Baltic almost to the Black Sea. They’ve been occupying and ruling for much longer than they’ve been in a socialist camp, and that had a much bigger impact on their national identity. And, as some others noted, being close to Germany gives Poland a big advantage. On the point of “communism”, take Romania as an example. I took a tour of the Presidential palace when I was in Bucharest. The guide was extremely negative about the communist era(when the palace itself was built), as many Romanians are. She went on and on how the dictator forced the palace construction and how terrible it was. Ironically, the palace is one of the few attraction in Bucharest. Walk just 200m away and it’s going to be rubble and desolation. In summary, I don’t think being anti-communist helps them all that much. > Bulgaria, on the other hand, was a close ally of the Soviet Union and more historically, of Russia Correct me if I’m wrong, but Bulgaria never was an economic powerhouse or major European power, unlike Poland. Between the Ottomans and other empires, they probably don’t have a history of building a strong economy. Being between rock and a hard place, not having resources, etc. probably contributed much more than what you say.
  - NewsyHacker 3y ago
    If you think Bucharest has few attractions besides Casa Poporului, you must have not had a good guidebook and really missed out. The city is full of interesting sites. Yes, the socialist era and the big earthquake damaged the city, but there are still great museums, churches, parks, and sites connected with the artists and men of letters of the 19th century and prewar era.
paganel 3y ago
People miss communism because communist governments provided normal people with stable jobs and guaranteed housing. Present day neo-liberal governments do not provide normal people with stable jobs and guaranteed housing. As such, you could say that choosing neo-liberal governments over communist governments doesn't make utilitarian sense for normal people, they should choose the governments that provide them with the basic necessities of life (i.e. housing and the guaranteed opportunity to earn one's living).

emptyfile 3y ago

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berdario 3y ago

> the ones succeeding the most are those which have a nearly universal negative appraisal of the communist era. A simpler explanation is that you swapped cause and effect: it's the countries where the economy struggled, where their people regret leaving their previous socialist economy. Why some economies struggled less than other is something that probably requires a lot more of country-by-country investigation, rather than generalisations... But I think that a common trend might be: How accessible (and geographically close) is the country to potential investors? Poland is close to Germany (and German investors could already find a German speaking minority, which could help bootstrap), likewise the Baltic republic are close to Finland and Sweden (Sweden is the first country to open an embassy in Estonia for example, which is arguably a prerequisite for a lot of investment in Estonia)

toyg 3y ago
So much this. Among other causes: Poland has a population of more than 35million people, so they were able to export a lot of workforce - which then generated significant remittance income, a fundamental driver of capital creation in poor economies. Bulgaria is less than 7 million, they obviously could not do it on the same scale; they also suffered from blocks on free circulation of workers, imposed on Romania and Bulgaria on accession precisely on the back of the experience with Poland. These blocks were only lifted about 10 years ago - and significantly increased the lag they already had versus the Baltic states (which were allowed to join much earlier, largely because of strategic German interests that did not apply to Romania and Bulgaria).
deleted 3y ago
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username332211 3y ago
> A simpler explanation is that you swapped cause and effect: it's the countries where the economy struggled, where their people regret leaving their previous socialist economy. That's a simpler explanation, indeed. It's also wrong. Take the 2 examples of GP. In Bulgaria, the first elections after the first president after the fall of the dictatorship was Petar Mladenov, a former politburo member. The first parliamentary elections were similarly won by the communist party. In Yugoslavia, Milosevic remained leader for decades. In both cases the "nostalgia" had already set in before anyone had the chance to experience any I'll effects caused by democracy.

soundarana 3y ago

You also need to take religion into account - Catholic vs Orthodox. Orthodox countries are statistically more corrupt due to relation to God and it's translation to relation to authority. This is well researched.

keiferski 3y ago
That’s a pretty big claim and I’d be curious to see this research. I think you’d have a hard time untangling the communist effect (and earlier Ottoman effect) on Orthodox states to make any kind of deeper argument here.
- soundarana 3y ago
  One sample: > Religion plays a significant role in influencing corruption levels [26,[29], [30], [31], [32], [33]]. While all religions encourage good moral conduct and ethical behavior, studies show that different religions are associated with varying levels of corruption. Notably, countries whose primary religions are hierarchical religions such as Catholic Christianity (Catholicism), Eastern Orthodox Christianity, and Islam, tend to have higher corruption levels, particularly in comparison to Protestant Christian countries [21,30,[34], [35], [36], [37]]. Supporting this claim, [30] found that corruption levels are lowest in countries with a Protestant majority and highest in countries with an Orthodox Christian majority. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10360949/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10360949/ To disentagle communism you can look at 1800. But there you have other confounders (colonialism, industrialization, feudalism...)
  - keiferski 3y ago
    But how many of these Orthodox countries have been Orthodox countries officially for more than a few decades? I’m struggling to think of any besides Greece.
    - NewsyHacker 3y ago
      Lebanon never got communism and the country was founded as largely a Catholic and Orthodox project, but it still has considerable corruption. (Not defending the OP's claim, just offering another data point.)

pjc50 3y ago

Some of ex-Yugoslavia (mostly Croatia) is doing rather well. But the Yugoslavs did have oppositional identity: it's just that their identities were the ones from before WW2 and even WW1. The lifting of Communism wound the clock straight back to the smoking gun of Gavrilo Princep, and the place tore itself apart over nationalism and religion again.

keiferski 3y ago
Yes Croatia (along with Slovenia) is a good example of a place that has a strong oppositional attitude toward the previous communist era. My impression is that Croatians want nothing to do with the Yugoslav era and much prefer to be an extension of Catholic Europe / the EU. Compare that to Serbia which is still trying to be unaligned, just as Yugoslavia was.
- sensanaty 3y ago
  As a Serb, I wouldn't really describe Serbia as being unaligned/centrist. The corrupt politicians (I wouldn't dare call them people) in the gov't itself eat from the laps of Russia because the West = Evil for some nebulous reason that nobody quite understands anymore (slightly exaggerating, it's mostly to do with Kosovo and NATO involvement in the Yugo wars in the 90s but most of the youth don't give a shit about that anymore), while the youth, at least in the bigger cities, tend to support the EU and want Serbia to join them one day if we're to have any hope of advancement. At the same time they're also selling the country to the highest bidder, which for now are various Arab states like the UAE and the Saudis (lookup the Belgrade waterfront as an example), though there's also lots of Chinese money flowing into the pockets of the politicians as well. It's a horrifically corrupt country with legitimate war criminals and their leashed dogs (like current PM Vucic) still holding the reigns, trying to scam and bruteforce their way to as much money as they can muster before the inevitable happens. Meanwhile it experiences insane levels of brain drain as anyone sensible and with the means to (my parents in the 80s and myself and pretty much everyone else in my family now included) gets the fuck out and never looks back twice. Mind you, myself and most Serb diaspora I know don't want anything to do with the place. I was born and grew up in Indonesia and have visited Serbia a handful of times at most, so it's not a country I'd call home in any sense of the word. Even then, it still depresses me how hopeless the situation seems for anyone living there, as relayed to me by the few friends and family that are still stuck there with no way out.

ricardobayes 3y ago

I find this extremely true. Hungary has a neutral/good memory of Soviet times. Despite oppression, people felt more safe, because there were clear guidelines to life in general. If you adhered to them, you had a boring and regulated life. Everyone had a job (it was mandatory to work), and most people could afford to own a holiday home in the countryside. The "state" provided a life where you played along the rules and with minimum input you reaped maximum rewards. That's difficult to duplicate in a capitalistic scenario.

hutzlibu 3y ago
Hungary was also way more liberal, than east germany for example, which practiced Stalinism till the very end (but still we have people nostalgic for that).
noir_lord 3y ago
As someone from the UK with a Hungarian partner - you pretty much nailed it. The older members of her family look back with fondness on that period in time which sounds strange to someone from a western country but I can sort of understand it - some of it is just the nostalgia of youth but some of it is I think caused because the freedom to make choices comes with the requirement to live with your choices. When the state keeps the safety rail up in where you live, where you work and how you spend your leisure time you have a clear path towards how to live your life - which is a comfortable if stifled existence. That said, the younger diaspora have a different way of looking at the world - many left to move to other EU countries because they wanted to avoid that nostalgia. That said I truly love visiting Hungary, the history, art and food is amazing, the people are warm and friendly and the countryside is staggeringly beautiful (as is the Balaton). It's certainly on my list of places to suggest people visit.
m4rtink 3y ago
Wasn't there a bloody rebellion against the Soviets in 1956 in Hungary?
- NewsyHacker 3y ago
  The nostalgia is for the period after 1956. While the USSR and Warsaw Pact helpers succeeded in putting down the Hungarian uprising, they had to manage the discontent in the country so that it wouldn’t happen again. (Moreover, the Hungarian uprising was fed by frustration at specifically the Stalinist regime forced on Hungary, but Stalin’s death was eventually followed by a thaw even in the USSR.) So, for the remaining thirty years of socialism, Hungarians found it easier to travel abroad, publish literature or present art and music that was previously forbidden, and there was even some limited private enterprise. In rankings of which countries had it best in the Eastern Bloc, Hungary is usually at or near the top.

peoplefromibiza 3y ago

It's more complicated than that, you are ignoring some significant facts. First of all, Poland, your example, has major human rights issues. Even ignoring the LGBT issues (the so-called "lgbt free zones" in Poland), Poland has practically abolished abortion rights. Abortion has been denied to Ukrainian women refugees that were rape victims. Amnesty International: Access to abortion was further limited. Criminal charges were used to curtail freedom of expression. The authorities continued to erode the independence of the judiciary. Freedom of peaceful assembly was restricted. Violations of LGBTI rights persisted. Ironically under the Soviet Union Poland was one of the first Countries in the whole Europe (and probably the World) to have legal abortion, because communist countries did not have to please the Catholic Church (or any church). Under Vladimir Lenin, the Soviet Union became the first modern state in legalizing abortions on request — the law was first introduced in the Russian SFSR in 1920 So there's that. The second issue is nationalism, mainly far right nationalism, that spread throughout Europe from the former eastern block, that was once put under control by the Soviets. AfD in Germany, Sweden Democrats in Sweden (despite the name they have roots in white nationalist and neo-Nazi parties), Geert Wilders and his Party for Freedom in the Netherlands, Giorgia Meloni and FdI in Italy, Vox in Spain etc. etc. Look at Milošević for an example gone really bad, former leftist, he joined ranks with far-right nationalists extremists and things went south. A very popular representative right now in Europe is Viktor Orbán in Hungary, who took a more moderate approach but is still a far-right conservative dictator-wannabe who's causing lots of troubles to the EU. All of the aforementioned far-right parties in Europe are allied to, or close friends with, Orban. Third: the so called Visegrád Group formed by Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia, has strong ties to Germany, which in turn means they sustain German economy by importing their goods (combined, they are the second largest export market for Germany) and vice versa. Last, but not least, the EU has invested a lot of money in those Countries and sustained their economy to keep them in, even though their politics have raised more than an eyebrow. So it's like the end of WW2, by looking at the numbers one could think that the war produced the economic growth in Europe, but it actually was the Marshall Plan. p.s. Poland is far from being one of the 3 major economies in Europe

puszczyk 3y ago
> Ironically under the Soviet Union Poland was one of the first Countries in the whole Europe (and probably the World) to have legal abortion >> the law was first introduced in the Russian SFSR in 1920 Poland was never part of the Soviet Union. It became socialist and part of the eastern block only after WW2, so I doubt the legal abortion date. Also I mean, yeah the eastern block was quite progressive in some ways, but human rights were not one of them. Some of the gain were hugely offset by the millions of people who were tortured and killed by the system. Also much more blood thirsty in the Soviet Union than in Communist Poland.