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It's not greed. You cannot blame people for taking what's incentivized and in front of them. One resource America has is a lot of space and we had many genera

It's not greed. You cannot blame people for taking what's incentivized and in front of them. One resource America has is a lot of space and we had many generations of easy money and government policy that encouraged such behavior.

kulahan 3y ago
That's... still greed. It's just not a big deal to be greedy, because we all kinda are. We all have negative traits to some degree though.
JohnFen 3y ago
Sure, it's certainly greed. That people were (are) incentivized to be greedy doesn't mean it's not greed anymore.
- busterarm 3y ago
  Not at all. Greed requires selfishness. If you're presented with abundance, everyone is taking a similar share and there isn't counterpressure from your peers (e.g., laws that we vote for), then there is no selfishness and thus no greed. To define greed you need a feedback loop. We're simple dumb animals. We take what's available. If you want to talk about defining arbitrary limits on consumption that are disconnected from circumstances then you're basically out here preaching religion.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Taking more than you need when others are lacking is selfishness. Counterpressure doesn't enter into it. If the only thing that stops you from being greedy is that other people or laws pressure you to not be, then you're still a greedy person. Our values are expressed by what we do in the absence of such pressure.
    - busterarm 3y ago
      In the scenario I just described no-one is lacking. When boomers bought all of these second/vacation homes cheaply in the 80s it wasn't in places with huge demand from underhoused people. These arguments need a little more consideration of facts rather than appeals to emotion.
      - Podgajski 3y ago
        I hate to say it, but there was homelessness in the 80s and it is only eclipse by our current state of homelessness. https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/2-1024x699.png https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/wp-content/uploads/2...
        busterarm 3y ago
        Not. Where. People. Bought. Second. Homes. Nobody was buying second apartments in NYC in the 80s. Nobody was buying apartments period. I knew people with brownstones for sale in spanish harlem that they couldn't get $10k for in the late 80s. 80% of _storefront_ space in midtown was vacant. People buying vacation homes in Florida or Vermont aren't responsible for homelessness in major cities.
  - Podgajski 3y ago
    It amazes me how people pick and choose when they want us to be “dumb animals“. And it amazes me that someone on hacker news would say this. Even dumb animals are more communal and fair than modern humans are.
webdood90 3y ago
I personally would feel a great deal of guilt if I purchased a second home in my city, knowing that there are thousands of people who would kill for the opportunity. To me, it is indeed greed. Some things are more sacred than money and housing is one of those things
- busterarm 3y ago
  But outside of a few outlier markets like SanFran/Vancouver/NY, which are mostly being used to expatriate stolen foreign money anyway, that's not how the majority of people acquired a second home.
  - webdood90 3y ago
    can you elaborate? I suspect a great deal of people buy a second home while maintaining the first one as a rental, if they can swing it. with all of the "free" money out there over the past few years, it was insanely easy to pull equity of your home to buy investment properties. I don't have numbers but I can't imagine this is a small amount.
    - busterarm 3y ago
      Nobody's swinging that in high demand markets. A lot of dumb people _tried_ to leverage themselves and lost their ass on airbnbs that aren't performing (airbnb has seen huge decline). The overwhelming majority of second homes are vacation homes. _Landlords_ aren't keeping people out of housing -- quite the opposite. Home ownership is kind of an endless money pit anyway. Most people are better off renting in any of the markets we're talking about homeless populations anyway.
      - bombcar 3y ago
        People are also extremely bad accountants, and if they sell a house for more than they bought it they accrue everything to profit, even if the rents during the time barely covered the mortgage (and/or didn’t cover repairs and maintenance at all). Large appreciation has hid the real costs associated with landlording.
Podgajski 3y ago
If there’s four slices of pizza in front of you and there’s a person sitting across from you, you’d be incentivized to take all four of the slices. Doing so would be greedy. Not being greedy is making sure the other person gets what they need before you take the rest. I can surely blame people for taking what’s in front of them when people who are also in front of them have nothing.
- busterarm 3y ago
  At the time all of these people purchased their (absurdly cheap, relatively -- or tax/interest-incentivized) second houses, there was nobody sitting across from them. That's what you fail to understand.
  - Podgajski 3y ago
    I’m the OP, and I definitely understand. Maybe that would be a good idea, once someone goes to apply for a mortgage there has to be a homeless family in the office right next to them.
    - busterarm 3y ago
      Other peoples' buying activity is not the reason you're homeless. /someone who has been homeless and has also bought a home.
      - Podgajski 3y ago
        For sure it’s not the only reason, but it’s a reason I can’t afford to rent anywhere since Covid for sure. By the way, I’m homeless because I have a serious mental illness. Not all of us are equipped to jump back in the workforce.
        busterarm 3y ago
        I understand and sympathize. And I'm sorry to guess correctly that it would be mental illness. I still think there's some misplaced blame going on here.

kulahan 3y ago

That's... still greed. It's just not a big deal to be greedy, because we all kinda are. We all have negative traits to some degree though.

JohnFen 3y ago

Sure, it's certainly greed. That people were (are) incentivized to be greedy doesn't mean it's not greed anymore.

busterarm 3y ago
Not at all. Greed requires selfishness. If you're presented with abundance, everyone is taking a similar share and there isn't counterpressure from your peers (e.g., laws that we vote for), then there is no selfishness and thus no greed. To define greed you need a feedback loop. We're simple dumb animals. We take what's available. If you want to talk about defining arbitrary limits on consumption that are disconnected from circumstances then you're basically out here preaching religion.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Taking more than you need when others are lacking is selfishness. Counterpressure doesn't enter into it. If the only thing that stops you from being greedy is that other people or laws pressure you to not be, then you're still a greedy person. Our values are expressed by what we do in the absence of such pressure.
  - busterarm 3y ago
    In the scenario I just described no-one is lacking. When boomers bought all of these second/vacation homes cheaply in the 80s it wasn't in places with huge demand from underhoused people. These arguments need a little more consideration of facts rather than appeals to emotion.
    - Podgajski 3y ago
      I hate to say it, but there was homelessness in the 80s and it is only eclipse by our current state of homelessness. https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/2-1024x699.png https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/wp-content/uploads/2...
      - busterarm 3y ago
        Not. Where. People. Bought. Second. Homes. Nobody was buying second apartments in NYC in the 80s. Nobody was buying apartments period. I knew people with brownstones for sale in spanish harlem that they couldn't get $10k for in the late 80s. 80% of _storefront_ space in midtown was vacant. People buying vacation homes in Florida or Vermont aren't responsible for homelessness in major cities.
- Podgajski 3y ago
  It amazes me how people pick and choose when they want us to be “dumb animals“. And it amazes me that someone on hacker news would say this. Even dumb animals are more communal and fair than modern humans are.

webdood90 3y ago

I personally would feel a great deal of guilt if I purchased a second home in my city, knowing that there are thousands of people who would kill for the opportunity. To me, it is indeed greed. Some things are more sacred than money and housing is one of those things

busterarm 3y ago
But outside of a few outlier markets like SanFran/Vancouver/NY, which are mostly being used to expatriate stolen foreign money anyway, that's not how the majority of people acquired a second home.
- webdood90 3y ago
  can you elaborate? I suspect a great deal of people buy a second home while maintaining the first one as a rental, if they can swing it. with all of the "free" money out there over the past few years, it was insanely easy to pull equity of your home to buy investment properties. I don't have numbers but I can't imagine this is a small amount.
  - busterarm 3y ago
    Nobody's swinging that in high demand markets. A lot of dumb people _tried_ to leverage themselves and lost their ass on airbnbs that aren't performing (airbnb has seen huge decline). The overwhelming majority of second homes are vacation homes. _Landlords_ aren't keeping people out of housing -- quite the opposite. Home ownership is kind of an endless money pit anyway. Most people are better off renting in any of the markets we're talking about homeless populations anyway.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      People are also extremely bad accountants, and if they sell a house for more than they bought it they accrue everything to profit, even if the rents during the time barely covered the mortgage (and/or didn’t cover repairs and maintenance at all). Large appreciation has hid the real costs associated with landlording.

Podgajski 3y ago

If there’s four slices of pizza in front of you and there’s a person sitting across from you, you’d be incentivized to take all four of the slices. Doing so would be greedy. Not being greedy is making sure the other person gets what they need before you take the rest. I can surely blame people for taking what’s in front of them when people who are also in front of them have nothing.

busterarm 3y ago
At the time all of these people purchased their (absurdly cheap, relatively -- or tax/interest-incentivized) second houses, there was nobody sitting across from them. That's what you fail to understand.
- Podgajski 3y ago
  I’m the OP, and I definitely understand. Maybe that would be a good idea, once someone goes to apply for a mortgage there has to be a homeless family in the office right next to them.
  - busterarm 3y ago
    Other peoples' buying activity is not the reason you're homeless. /someone who has been homeless and has also bought a home.
    - Podgajski 3y ago
      For sure it’s not the only reason, but it’s a reason I can’t afford to rent anywhere since Covid for sure. By the way, I’m homeless because I have a serious mental illness. Not all of us are equipped to jump back in the workforce.
      - busterarm 3y ago
        I understand and sympathize. And I'm sorry to guess correctly that it would be mental illness. I still think there's some misplaced blame going on here.