5 ms·

Go to the Florida intercoastal areas during the months of April -> October. 90% of the million dollar+ mansions empty, waiting for their snowbird owners to ret

Go to the Florida intercoastal areas during the months of April -> October. 90% of the million dollar+ mansions empty, waiting for their snowbird owners to return. Look at the Miami skyline at 7-9pm, when people should be getting home. Half the condos with no lights on. We have a wealth inequality problem, symptoms include housing shortages.

Aurornis 3y ago
> 90% of the million dollar+ mansions empty, People buying vacation homes on prime beachfront property has nothing to do with housing shortages in cities where young people are trying to live and work.
- chickenpotpie 3y ago
  Original comment is specifically talking about Miami, which is a city where young people are trying to live and work.
  - Aurornis 3y ago
    > which is a city where young people are trying to live and work. I specifically quoted the part talking about "million dollar+ mansions" in "intercoastal areas". The comment about condos in Miami not having lights on at 7-9PM was a separate point, but I don't think it's really true that "half" the condos in Miami are empty for no good reason. People work late, people go on vacation, people go out on the town.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - zbrozek 3y ago
      In my townhouse in Sunnyvale the lights are off, despite that I'm home right now. Sitting in the dark is better than paying PG&E's ridiculous rates. I wish it were easier to install solar here.
      - ta1243 3y ago
        That's ridiculous. The lightbuilbs in my living room use 15W, 25 if I include the lamps. To sit in the dark for 6 hours while paying a whopping $1/kWh would save me 15 cents.
        zbrozek 3y ago
        It is ridiculous. But when I'm away from solar, I'm extremely frugal with energy because it's so expensive here. It's a matter of feeling ripped off, not whether or not one can afford it. Rates here feel like buying water at an amusement park, except that you live with it all the time.
        ta1243 3y ago
        OK, you sit in the dark so you can save 1c an hour. Have fun.
        bitxbitxbitcoin 3y ago
        Speaking of ridiculous… Average residential cost per kWh in Sunnyvale is actually $0.30 not $30 or $1.
        ta1243 3y ago
        > Speaking of ridiculous… Average residential cost per kWh in Sunnyvale is actually $30 not $1. No, it's not. That could potentially be the cost of electricity in somewhere like the South Pole. "The average electric rates in Sunnyvale, CA cost 31 ¢/kilowatt-hour (kWh)" https://www.energysage.com/local-data/electricity-cost/ca/santa-clara-county/sunnyvale/ https://www.energysage.com/local-data/electricity-cost/ca/sa... You'd have to provide some shockingly well sourced data to explain why electricity cost in one location is 100 times that of the rest of California, or how the average resident spends over $150,000 a year on electricity (the average per capita use in Santa Clara county is 6.2MW) https://findenergy.com/ca/santa-clara-county-electricity/ https://findenergy.com/ca/santa-clara-county-electricity/
- hammock 3y ago
  "All real estate is local"
- petermcneeley 3y ago
  The commenter said "wealth inequality problem" which is basically about distribution of economic resources. If these resources were distributed differently those mansions would not be located on prime beachfront property. They may take completely different forms!
  - Aurornis 3y ago
    > If these resources were distributed differently those mansions would not be located on prime beachfront property. They may take completely different forms! As long as we're talking hypotheticals with no basis in reality, how about: "If more houses were built then none of this would be a problem" Discussions about hypothetical forceful redistribution of wealth to prevent people from owning mansions isn't really interesting, IMO.
    - petermcneeley 3y ago
      "If more houses were built then none of this would be a problem" Yes but the economy is a real thing with limitations. In the short term you are limited by economic resources. Think of a worker placement board game or a city building game. You can choose to build mansions on beaches that will be 90% empty or you can choose to build housing elsewhere which might find different utility. But you cannot do both!
    - archontes 3y ago
      It's kind of interesting you're saying the same thing as each other. If money were in the hands of people who want houses built in cities instead of on beaches, there'd be more houses in cities and fewer on beaches.
    - Hammershaft 3y ago
      I mean I agree that principally what needs to happen is that houses need to be built & cities need to densify, but there's no question huge chunks of prime inner city real estate lie vacant because of wealth inequality & land speculation. A land value tax would do a lot to put these underutilized spaces to work.
- subpixel 3y ago
  Where I live, which is along the ocean, boomers who grew up working in local industry are selling for seven figures to vacation home owners because they can’t say no to the money. So what was - one generation ago - a place where summer visitors would mingle with the locals has become a place where few working people actually live and which is increasingly empty in the cold months. This has taken many hundreds of units of housing off the market for working families. To the point that many restaurants and such house their workers seasonally. And our electrician, plumber et al drive from over an hour inland where they can afford to live (and these people are not hurting). The house across the street from mine - a teardown - is under contract for $1.7MM.
- brnaftr361 3y ago
  Sure it does. It's just not a 1:1 correlation. People who could otherwise live there are priced out and in lieu of such an arrangement they occupy homes elsewhere while the mansion sits vacant. There is of course the egregious, low-density nature of such a mansion in the first place, something it seems that is especially unfit for the current culture.
skymast 3y ago
[dead]
luis_cho 3y ago
Portugal is the country from OECD with more houses per family (almost 2 houses per family), and we still have a housing crisis
- ta1243 3y ago
  How many of those are in places where people want to live and work? Having houses in the country 3 hours from a major city is less useful than having residences in the cities.
Beached 3y ago
yeah, this isn't caused by qealth inequality. it is a separate issue, but not in housing g shortage. housing isn't a fixed sum game in usa, we have plenty of space and materials to build. the issue is that we do not allow for building to be built in the right locations in the right volume. zoning and local laws are the reason.
timdev2 3y ago
Of the half that are dark, how many are working late, out to dinner, out of town, etc? That half the units are dark from 7-9PM doesn't mean they're not someone's primary residence.
lmm 3y ago
This is a common talking point but the facts don't bear it out. Empty homes in cities with demand are low a single digit proportion of homes that could be in circulation. You could argue that these empty mansions are a sign of misallocated resources, but the reason there are no homes available in the places people want/need to live isn't that there's no money to build them, it's because it's de facto illegal to build new homes anywhere they would be useful, at any price. It's not a wealth problem, it's a NIMBY problem, a symptom of our political gerontocracy.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > it's because it's de facto illegal to build new homes anywhere they would be useful, at any price. This is simply false when stated as an absolute. It may be true in some areas, but not in most of the ones I'm familiar with.
  - twothreeone 3y ago
    Specifically true for "Closed Access" cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York, Boston and so on (see https://www.mercatus.org/system/files/erdmann_hamilton_and_furth_-_policy_brief_-_land_use_regulations_and_how_they_create_closed_access_cities_-_v1.pdf https://www.mercatus.org/system/files/erdmann_hamilton_and_f...).
- Hammershaft 3y ago
  On the other hand, vacant property generally is very common. http://www.vacantnewyork.com/ http://www.vacantnewyork.com/ Land value tax would fix this.
  - lmm 3y ago
    I'm all for land value tax, but it wouldn't fix things on its own. The main reason those vacant buildings aren't being converted to homes isn't because their owners don't want the money, it's because it would be extremely difficult to meet the code and zoning requirements (and even then, I don't think New York has by-right zoning rules, so you can meet all the requirements and still be turned down) to use them as homes.
golemotron 3y ago
> Look at the Miami skyline at 7-9pm, when people should be getting home. Half the condos with no lights on. > We have a wealth inequality problem, symptoms include housing shortages. Nope. The problem having a investment growth picture so bad that real estate starts to look good as a haven.
- Hammershaft 3y ago
  A land value tax would fix the rampant land speculation that leads to such an abysmal underutilization of land.
- scythe 3y ago
  There is a unique force driving some people with the means to buy to do so in Florida: https://blog.vanhornlawgroup.com/can-you-file-bankruptcy-and-keep-your-house-in-florida/ https://blog.vanhornlawgroup.com/can-you-file-bankruptcy-and...
HDThoreaun 3y ago
Real estate speculation is only possible because of government policy that created housing shortages.

Aurornis 3y ago

> 90% of the million dollar+ mansions empty, People buying vacation homes on prime beachfront property has nothing to do with housing shortages in cities where young people are trying to live and work.

chickenpotpie 3y ago
Original comment is specifically talking about Miami, which is a city where young people are trying to live and work.
- Aurornis 3y ago
  > which is a city where young people are trying to live and work. I specifically quoted the part talking about "million dollar+ mansions" in "intercoastal areas". The comment about condos in Miami not having lights on at 7-9PM was a separate point, but I don't think it's really true that "half" the condos in Miami are empty for no good reason. People work late, people go on vacation, people go out on the town.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - zbrozek 3y ago
    In my townhouse in Sunnyvale the lights are off, despite that I'm home right now. Sitting in the dark is better than paying PG&E's ridiculous rates. I wish it were easier to install solar here.
    - ta1243 3y ago
      That's ridiculous. The lightbuilbs in my living room use 15W, 25 if I include the lamps. To sit in the dark for 6 hours while paying a whopping $1/kWh would save me 15 cents.
      - zbrozek 3y ago
        It is ridiculous. But when I'm away from solar, I'm extremely frugal with energy because it's so expensive here. It's a matter of feeling ripped off, not whether or not one can afford it. Rates here feel like buying water at an amusement park, except that you live with it all the time.
        ta1243 3y ago
        OK, you sit in the dark so you can save 1c an hour. Have fun.
      - bitxbitxbitcoin 3y ago
        Speaking of ridiculous… Average residential cost per kWh in Sunnyvale is actually $0.30 not $30 or $1.
        ta1243 3y ago
        > Speaking of ridiculous… Average residential cost per kWh in Sunnyvale is actually $30 not $1. No, it's not. That could potentially be the cost of electricity in somewhere like the South Pole. "The average electric rates in Sunnyvale, CA cost 31 ¢/kilowatt-hour (kWh)" https://www.energysage.com/local-data/electricity-cost/ca/santa-clara-county/sunnyvale/ https://www.energysage.com/local-data/electricity-cost/ca/sa... You'd have to provide some shockingly well sourced data to explain why electricity cost in one location is 100 times that of the rest of California, or how the average resident spends over $150,000 a year on electricity (the average per capita use in Santa Clara county is 6.2MW) https://findenergy.com/ca/santa-clara-county-electricity/ https://findenergy.com/ca/santa-clara-county-electricity/
hammock 3y ago
"All real estate is local"
petermcneeley 3y ago
The commenter said "wealth inequality problem" which is basically about distribution of economic resources. If these resources were distributed differently those mansions would not be located on prime beachfront property. They may take completely different forms!
- Aurornis 3y ago
  > If these resources were distributed differently those mansions would not be located on prime beachfront property. They may take completely different forms! As long as we're talking hypotheticals with no basis in reality, how about: "If more houses were built then none of this would be a problem" Discussions about hypothetical forceful redistribution of wealth to prevent people from owning mansions isn't really interesting, IMO.
  - petermcneeley 3y ago
    "If more houses were built then none of this would be a problem" Yes but the economy is a real thing with limitations. In the short term you are limited by economic resources. Think of a worker placement board game or a city building game. You can choose to build mansions on beaches that will be 90% empty or you can choose to build housing elsewhere which might find different utility. But you cannot do both!
  - archontes 3y ago
    It's kind of interesting you're saying the same thing as each other. If money were in the hands of people who want houses built in cities instead of on beaches, there'd be more houses in cities and fewer on beaches.
  - Hammershaft 3y ago
    I mean I agree that principally what needs to happen is that houses need to be built & cities need to densify, but there's no question huge chunks of prime inner city real estate lie vacant because of wealth inequality & land speculation. A land value tax would do a lot to put these underutilized spaces to work.
subpixel 3y ago
Where I live, which is along the ocean, boomers who grew up working in local industry are selling for seven figures to vacation home owners because they can’t say no to the money. So what was - one generation ago - a place where summer visitors would mingle with the locals has become a place where few working people actually live and which is increasingly empty in the cold months. This has taken many hundreds of units of housing off the market for working families. To the point that many restaurants and such house their workers seasonally. And our electrician, plumber et al drive from over an hour inland where they can afford to live (and these people are not hurting). The house across the street from mine - a teardown - is under contract for $1.7MM.
brnaftr361 3y ago
Sure it does. It's just not a 1:1 correlation. People who could otherwise live there are priced out and in lieu of such an arrangement they occupy homes elsewhere while the mansion sits vacant. There is of course the egregious, low-density nature of such a mansion in the first place, something it seems that is especially unfit for the current culture.

skymast 3y ago

[dead]

luis_cho 3y ago

Portugal is the country from OECD with more houses per family (almost 2 houses per family), and we still have a housing crisis

ta1243 3y ago
How many of those are in places where people want to live and work? Having houses in the country 3 hours from a major city is less useful than having residences in the cities.

Beached 3y ago

yeah, this isn't caused by qealth inequality. it is a separate issue, but not in housing g shortage. housing isn't a fixed sum game in usa, we have plenty of space and materials to build. the issue is that we do not allow for building to be built in the right locations in the right volume. zoning and local laws are the reason.

timdev2 3y ago

Of the half that are dark, how many are working late, out to dinner, out of town, etc? That half the units are dark from 7-9PM doesn't mean they're not someone's primary residence.

lmm 3y ago

This is a common talking point but the facts don't bear it out. Empty homes in cities with demand are low a single digit proportion of homes that could be in circulation. You could argue that these empty mansions are a sign of misallocated resources, but the reason there are no homes available in the places people want/need to live isn't that there's no money to build them, it's because it's de facto illegal to build new homes anywhere they would be useful, at any price. It's not a wealth problem, it's a NIMBY problem, a symptom of our political gerontocracy.

JohnFen 3y ago
> it's because it's de facto illegal to build new homes anywhere they would be useful, at any price. This is simply false when stated as an absolute. It may be true in some areas, but not in most of the ones I'm familiar with.
- twothreeone 3y ago
  Specifically true for "Closed Access" cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York, Boston and so on (see https://www.mercatus.org/system/files/erdmann_hamilton_and_furth_-_policy_brief_-_land_use_regulations_and_how_they_create_closed_access_cities_-_v1.pdf https://www.mercatus.org/system/files/erdmann_hamilton_and_f...).
Hammershaft 3y ago
On the other hand, vacant property generally is very common. http://www.vacantnewyork.com/ http://www.vacantnewyork.com/ Land value tax would fix this.
- lmm 3y ago
  I'm all for land value tax, but it wouldn't fix things on its own. The main reason those vacant buildings aren't being converted to homes isn't because their owners don't want the money, it's because it would be extremely difficult to meet the code and zoning requirements (and even then, I don't think New York has by-right zoning rules, so you can meet all the requirements and still be turned down) to use them as homes.

golemotron 3y ago

> Look at the Miami skyline at 7-9pm, when people should be getting home. Half the condos with no lights on. > We have a wealth inequality problem, symptoms include housing shortages. Nope. The problem having a investment growth picture so bad that real estate starts to look good as a haven.

Hammershaft 3y ago
A land value tax would fix the rampant land speculation that leads to such an abysmal underutilization of land.
scythe 3y ago
There is a unique force driving some people with the means to buy to do so in Florida: https://blog.vanhornlawgroup.com/can-you-file-bankruptcy-and-keep-your-house-in-florida/ https://blog.vanhornlawgroup.com/can-you-file-bankruptcy-and...

HDThoreaun 3y ago

Real estate speculation is only possible because of government policy that created housing shortages.