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There was a major airliner crash at JFK caused (partly) by poor communication between pilots and ATC, resulting in the plane running out of fuel, https://en.wi

There was a major airliner crash at JFK caused (partly) by poor communication between pilots and ATC, resulting in the plane running out of fuel, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avianca_Flight_052 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avianca_Flight_052 (1990) https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-words-not-spoken-the-crash-of-avianca-flight-052-c69145b326f2 https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-words-not-spoken-the... There was a similar fact pattern to the OP: the pilots relied on time estimates from ATC which turned out to be inaccurate, - "Due to the air traffic controllers giving ultimately untrue delay estimations the flight became critically low on fuel."

tomohawk 3y ago
As a pilot, your first job is to fly the airplane, not listen to ATC. A family member was a commercial airline pilot for many decades, and had stories of having to declare an emergency when ATC direction conflicted with facts in the air. ATC would get pissed, but they're safely on the ground. Another family member was ATC, and so holiday dinners could be interesting.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Exactly. If the flight had been in real danger the pilot would have declared an emergency (and then had to answer to why didn’t he divert to Oakland). But if you declare an emergency the first thing you may do is not insist on flying the ILS separation.
  - cycomanic 3y ago
    > But if you declare an emergency the first thing you may do is not insist on flying the ILS separation. What do you mean does the airport continue visual approaches on both runways even in an emergency?
jcalvinowens 3y ago
> major airliner crash at JFK caused (partly) by poor communication between pilots and ATC IMHO that doesn't accurately represent the NTSB's conclusions. They didn't cite ATC as a cause at all, only as a secondary contributing factor (along with the weather): >> The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the >> probable cause of this accident was the failure of the flightcrew to >> adequately manage the airplane's fuel load, and their failure to >> communicate an emergency fuel situation to air traffic control >> before fuel exhaustion occurred. >> Contributing to the accident was the flightcrew's failure to use >> an airline operational control dispatch system to assist them during >> the international flight into a high-density airport in poor weather. >> Also contributing to the accident was inadequate traffic flow >> management by the FAA and the lack of standardized understandable >> terminology for pilots and controllers for minimum and emergency fuel >> states. >> The Safety Board also determines that windshear, crew fatigue and >> stress were factors that led to the unsuccessful completion of the >> first approach and thus contributed to the accident.

tomohawk 3y ago

As a pilot, your first job is to fly the airplane, not listen to ATC. A family member was a commercial airline pilot for many decades, and had stories of having to declare an emergency when ATC direction conflicted with facts in the air. ATC would get pissed, but they're safely on the ground. Another family member was ATC, and so holiday dinners could be interesting.

bombcar 3y ago
Exactly. If the flight had been in real danger the pilot would have declared an emergency (and then had to answer to why didn’t he divert to Oakland). But if you declare an emergency the first thing you may do is not insist on flying the ILS separation.
- cycomanic 3y ago
  > But if you declare an emergency the first thing you may do is not insist on flying the ILS separation. What do you mean does the airport continue visual approaches on both runways even in an emergency?

jcalvinowens 3y ago

> major airliner crash at JFK caused (partly) by poor communication between pilots and ATC IMHO that doesn't accurately represent the NTSB's conclusions. They didn't cite ATC as a cause at all, only as a secondary contributing factor (along with the weather): >> The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the >> probable cause of this accident was the failure of the flightcrew to >> adequately manage the airplane's fuel load, and their failure to >> communicate an emergency fuel situation to air traffic control >> before fuel exhaustion occurred. >> Contributing to the accident was the flightcrew's failure to use >> an airline operational control dispatch system to assist them during >> the international flight into a high-density airport in poor weather. >> Also contributing to the accident was inadequate traffic flow >> management by the FAA and the lack of standardized understandable >> terminology for pilots and controllers for minimum and emergency fuel >> states. >> The Safety Board also determines that windshear, crew fatigue and >> stress were factors that led to the unsuccessful completion of the >> first approach and thus contributed to the accident.