6 ms·

I think a lot of productive hardworking people's money has been spent on propaganda whose sole intention is to ensure that people equate homeless people to "men

by advael 3y ago

I think a lot of productive hardworking people's money has been spent on propaganda whose sole intention is to ensure that people equate homeless people to "mentally ill drug addicts" rather than, say, "private equity real estate buyup refugees"

ciguy 3y ago
How many homeless people do you interact with daily? Because I'm forced to interact with many of them on a daily basis to simply go about my life in the Bay Area. And almost all of them, with very very few exceptions are both mentally ill and drug addicts. I used to think like you, but being forced to deal with them in real life on a daily basis has a way of killing preconceived convenient notions.
- ska 3y ago
  Selection bias is a strong effect here.
- advael 3y ago
  I would say more than one on average daily, and these are just the ten percent of homeless people I see that will say hello and interact with me rather than simply go about their own business
- mjamesaustin 3y ago
  They're not homeless because they were mentally ill drug addicts. They're mentally ill drug addicts because they're homeless. People without a stable living condition experience severe stress and mental illness as a result. People without necessities to live turn to drugs to alleviate the pain and suffering they experience. This study is one example of how giving money to people to alleviate their conditions can improve their lives and enable them to further engage in self improvement.
- amanaplanacanal 3y ago
  The people you are interacting with are not typical. The study I’ve seen shows about one third with untreated mental health issues, and one third with drug problems. I would assume a large overlap in those two groups. The folks without those two problems just aren’t the ones in your face every day.
- bscphil 3y ago
  A large percentage of the homeless population is just living on the margins, waiting and hoping for their prospects to improve. They may be living in a car, on half on the street and half on someone's couch, waiting for job applications that could give them a livable wage to come back, and so on. About half [1] of the homeless adult population of working age is employed for at least part of the year! Like you, I have lived in areas experiencing a lot of homelessness. I've stepped over sleeping people and drug needles because there was no other way to get to work or where I needed to go. On the other hand, I think that combining this with the statistical facts gives us a picture of the true size of the problem. The mentally ill and addicts are the visible part of an iceberg of Americans slowly being priced out of affordable housing and access to healthcare. [1] https://news.uchicago.edu/story/employment-alone-isnt-enough-solve-homelessness-study-suggests https://news.uchicago.edu/story/employment-alone-isnt-enough...
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  The reality is that you don't actually KNOW most homeless people or even know they are homeless, because they are living out of their car and still have a job. The majority of homeless people are simply priced out of homes, not having their entire lives fall apart in a crisis. They are people who were barely making ends meet for a decade, but as rent inexorably rises a couple percent every year and their basic job's hourly rate doesn't, they eventually just run out of options.
- eli 3y ago
  I'm confused. Are you interested in evidence-backed policies that get people off the street? Or not?
- altruios 3y ago
  The tone and energy you are sending is kinda sus. You are arguing you would rather treat them worse. Cruelty for the sake of it... because anything else would be 'undeserving burdens' on the 'honest working class folk'. If helping one group hurts another (in your mind), of course that's how you would think. Powers that be conditioned you to think (falsely) it's a zero sum game. People that have mental health issues need help they are not getting on the streets, there just isn't enough to go around. Addiction is a weird one for me. people call it a disease, your brain undergoes physical changes. disease is a loosy-goosy word I've come to learn (psychological disorders count as diseases apparently?). Addiction doesn't have to start with 'a choice (on the user's part)', but commonly does - which is why I comprehend that some people blame the user for their addiction. But the core reason people turn to stuff on the streets is: the streets suck. Get people off the streets... suddenly their outlook improves. Funny that! And yes, the reduced crime/asset rate probably is worth $X coming from taxes spend on this. That's an easy calculation - human live /comfort should be priced fairly high.
hehhehaha 3y ago
the people who say this never live in areas with homeless people
- advael 3y ago
  Weird, I do. I live within a minute's walk of three separate encampments of homeless people, most of whom seem reasonably sane when I talk to them, and if they have drug problems they certainly aren't more apparent than those of my coworkers on average
  - hehhehaha 3y ago
    I don't believe you for a second because you dont need to sniff out if homeless people are sane. You can just see them shooting up in broad daylight. You can just look on the ground and see syringes ontop of the mountain of trash.
    - advael 3y ago
      I think you're doing more to illustrate the degree to which your perspective is more a product of bias and emotion than mine through your focus and prose than I possibly could through argumentation
    - pavel_lishin 3y ago
      What does that have to do with sanity?
  - advael 3y ago
    Is there a feature that lets you disable replies to your comment? I find it hilarious that the person arguing that their egregiously dehumanizing stereotypes of the homeless are simply objective reality rather than biased and that I must be lying has done so if so
    - steveklabnik 3y ago
      > Is there a feature that lets you disable replies to your comment? No, but Hacker News will not show the reply button to a comment made extremely recently, to discourage quick back-and-forths. Looking at the timestamps I suspect that's what you're seeing.
SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
What would the point of a propaganda campaign like that be? What evil organization is paying on the backend to make sure homeless people do not receive money? Argue in good faith. People are skeptical that their money should go to people that have not earned it. That is the reality of the argument. It isn’t a conspiracy that many people equate homeless to drug addiction, it’s fact. It is also fact that homelessness isn’t always the guy sleeping in the street, but the single mom sleeping on a friend’s couch for as long as possible. This is just another “it’s really easy to spend other people’s money” issue.
- advael 3y ago
  First of all, we don't have to propose an imaginary conspiracy to acknowledge the reality of how we came to think about drugs the way we do: it is documented that the intent of the controlled substances act was to justify criminalizing the political opponents of the Nixon administration. But the downstream effects of this, aside from making medical care much more difficult to access, has been a large amount of money funneled into propaganda that blames drugs for a wide swath of society's ills while also needing to claim that the act of using the drugs was a personal moral failing, in order to justify the carceral approach we have taken to violations of this law. The "evil organization" that puts out a lot of this stuff is only loosely affiliated, usually local law enforcement orgs, though usually federally funded to some degree, the motivations for scaremongering in this way are obvious enough that no conspiracy is necessary there either: they benefit from the fear of the poor, the homeless, and the drug-addicted in a direct, financial way. By now many of them are staffed entirely by people who have grown up in this propaganda-filled environment. Scapegoating the poor as depraved criminals is a time-honored way of muddying the waters about economic issues that need resolving, and while doing so openly has fallen out of fashion, most people alive today have consumed enough fearmongering and misinformation about drugs that tying drug usage to issues of poverty is an easy way to launder that kind of messaging, and so that kind of messaging is pervasive. So pervasive that you don't even believe that it comes from anywhere, just that it's the obvious truth. In reality, there are tons of high-functioning drug addicts, and the high-functioning part has far more to do with affluence than what drugs they use, just like homelessness, in turn, has more to do with the housing market than it does with drugs. This would seem obvious to me, but what is "obvious" is not a function of some objective universal reality, and only really comments on the subjective context of any given person claiming "obviousness", including both what they've experienced, and what they've been told When the incentives are strong enough, no conspiracy is necessary, especially when the tricks being used are old and battle-tested ones. Also, as far as spending other people's money goes, I'd much rather governments be spending mine on mitigating the housing crisis and its downstream effects on individuals than funding law enforcement to harass and make life difficult for society's most downtrodden. Police receive outsized budgets to "clean up" homeless encampments and endlessly violate people's privacy, autonomy, and often bodily integrity in the name of an endless draconian crackdown on the contraband that you would have me suppose is responsible for the existence of the homeless. Even an inefficient approach like funneling some of that money directly to individuals stuck in poverty traps seems a lot more likely to actually make a dent in the problem, rather than constantly exacerbating it. I bet it would be cheaper, too
meowtimemania 3y ago
I think there’s a few different groups: * homeless because of their severe drug addiction * homeless because they can’t afford rent Each group needs different solutions.

by advael 3y ago

ciguy 3y ago

How many homeless people do you interact with daily? Because I'm forced to interact with many of them on a daily basis to simply go about my life in the Bay Area. And almost all of them, with very very few exceptions are both mentally ill and drug addicts. I used to think like you, but being forced to deal with them in real life on a daily basis has a way of killing preconceived convenient notions.

ska 3y ago
Selection bias is a strong effect here.
advael 3y ago
I would say more than one on average daily, and these are just the ten percent of homeless people I see that will say hello and interact with me rather than simply go about their own business
mjamesaustin 3y ago
They're not homeless because they were mentally ill drug addicts. They're mentally ill drug addicts because they're homeless. People without a stable living condition experience severe stress and mental illness as a result. People without necessities to live turn to drugs to alleviate the pain and suffering they experience. This study is one example of how giving money to people to alleviate their conditions can improve their lives and enable them to further engage in self improvement.
amanaplanacanal 3y ago
The people you are interacting with are not typical. The study I’ve seen shows about one third with untreated mental health issues, and one third with drug problems. I would assume a large overlap in those two groups. The folks without those two problems just aren’t the ones in your face every day.
bscphil 3y ago
A large percentage of the homeless population is just living on the margins, waiting and hoping for their prospects to improve. They may be living in a car, on half on the street and half on someone's couch, waiting for job applications that could give them a livable wage to come back, and so on. About half [1] of the homeless adult population of working age is employed for at least part of the year! Like you, I have lived in areas experiencing a lot of homelessness. I've stepped over sleeping people and drug needles because there was no other way to get to work or where I needed to go. On the other hand, I think that combining this with the statistical facts gives us a picture of the true size of the problem. The mentally ill and addicts are the visible part of an iceberg of Americans slowly being priced out of affordable housing and access to healthcare. [1] https://news.uchicago.edu/story/employment-alone-isnt-enough-solve-homelessness-study-suggests https://news.uchicago.edu/story/employment-alone-isnt-enough...
mrguyorama 3y ago
The reality is that you don't actually KNOW most homeless people or even know they are homeless, because they are living out of their car and still have a job. The majority of homeless people are simply priced out of homes, not having their entire lives fall apart in a crisis. They are people who were barely making ends meet for a decade, but as rent inexorably rises a couple percent every year and their basic job's hourly rate doesn't, they eventually just run out of options.
eli 3y ago
I'm confused. Are you interested in evidence-backed policies that get people off the street? Or not?
altruios 3y ago
The tone and energy you are sending is kinda sus. You are arguing you would rather treat them worse. Cruelty for the sake of it... because anything else would be 'undeserving burdens' on the 'honest working class folk'. If helping one group hurts another (in your mind), of course that's how you would think. Powers that be conditioned you to think (falsely) it's a zero sum game. People that have mental health issues need help they are not getting on the streets, there just isn't enough to go around. Addiction is a weird one for me. people call it a disease, your brain undergoes physical changes. disease is a loosy-goosy word I've come to learn (psychological disorders count as diseases apparently?). Addiction doesn't have to start with 'a choice (on the user's part)', but commonly does - which is why I comprehend that some people blame the user for their addiction. But the core reason people turn to stuff on the streets is: the streets suck. Get people off the streets... suddenly their outlook improves. Funny that! And yes, the reduced crime/asset rate probably is worth $X coming from taxes spend on this. That's an easy calculation - human live /comfort should be priced fairly high.

hehhehaha 3y ago

the people who say this never live in areas with homeless people

advael 3y ago
Weird, I do. I live within a minute's walk of three separate encampments of homeless people, most of whom seem reasonably sane when I talk to them, and if they have drug problems they certainly aren't more apparent than those of my coworkers on average
- hehhehaha 3y ago
  I don't believe you for a second because you dont need to sniff out if homeless people are sane. You can just see them shooting up in broad daylight. You can just look on the ground and see syringes ontop of the mountain of trash.
  - advael 3y ago
    I think you're doing more to illustrate the degree to which your perspective is more a product of bias and emotion than mine through your focus and prose than I possibly could through argumentation
  - pavel_lishin 3y ago
    What does that have to do with sanity?
- advael 3y ago
  Is there a feature that lets you disable replies to your comment? I find it hilarious that the person arguing that their egregiously dehumanizing stereotypes of the homeless are simply objective reality rather than biased and that I must be lying has done so if so
  - steveklabnik 3y ago
    > Is there a feature that lets you disable replies to your comment? No, but Hacker News will not show the reply button to a comment made extremely recently, to discourage quick back-and-forths. Looking at the timestamps I suspect that's what you're seeing.

SV_BubbleTime 3y ago

What would the point of a propaganda campaign like that be? What evil organization is paying on the backend to make sure homeless people do not receive money? Argue in good faith. People are skeptical that their money should go to people that have not earned it. That is the reality of the argument. It isn’t a conspiracy that many people equate homeless to drug addiction, it’s fact. It is also fact that homelessness isn’t always the guy sleeping in the street, but the single mom sleeping on a friend’s couch for as long as possible. This is just another “it’s really easy to spend other people’s money” issue.

advael 3y ago
First of all, we don't have to propose an imaginary conspiracy to acknowledge the reality of how we came to think about drugs the way we do: it is documented that the intent of the controlled substances act was to justify criminalizing the political opponents of the Nixon administration. But the downstream effects of this, aside from making medical care much more difficult to access, has been a large amount of money funneled into propaganda that blames drugs for a wide swath of society's ills while also needing to claim that the act of using the drugs was a personal moral failing, in order to justify the carceral approach we have taken to violations of this law. The "evil organization" that puts out a lot of this stuff is only loosely affiliated, usually local law enforcement orgs, though usually federally funded to some degree, the motivations for scaremongering in this way are obvious enough that no conspiracy is necessary there either: they benefit from the fear of the poor, the homeless, and the drug-addicted in a direct, financial way. By now many of them are staffed entirely by people who have grown up in this propaganda-filled environment. Scapegoating the poor as depraved criminals is a time-honored way of muddying the waters about economic issues that need resolving, and while doing so openly has fallen out of fashion, most people alive today have consumed enough fearmongering and misinformation about drugs that tying drug usage to issues of poverty is an easy way to launder that kind of messaging, and so that kind of messaging is pervasive. So pervasive that you don't even believe that it comes from anywhere, just that it's the obvious truth. In reality, there are tons of high-functioning drug addicts, and the high-functioning part has far more to do with affluence than what drugs they use, just like homelessness, in turn, has more to do with the housing market than it does with drugs. This would seem obvious to me, but what is "obvious" is not a function of some objective universal reality, and only really comments on the subjective context of any given person claiming "obviousness", including both what they've experienced, and what they've been told When the incentives are strong enough, no conspiracy is necessary, especially when the tricks being used are old and battle-tested ones. Also, as far as spending other people's money goes, I'd much rather governments be spending mine on mitigating the housing crisis and its downstream effects on individuals than funding law enforcement to harass and make life difficult for society's most downtrodden. Police receive outsized budgets to "clean up" homeless encampments and endlessly violate people's privacy, autonomy, and often bodily integrity in the name of an endless draconian crackdown on the contraband that you would have me suppose is responsible for the existence of the homeless. Even an inefficient approach like funneling some of that money directly to individuals stuck in poverty traps seems a lot more likely to actually make a dent in the problem, rather than constantly exacerbating it. I bet it would be cheaper, too

meowtimemania 3y ago

I think there’s a few different groups: * homeless because of their severe drug addiction * homeless because they can’t afford rent Each group needs different solutions.