4 ms·

So I know there's going to be someone coming in to complain that Software Engineers aren't "real engineers" and we need "real engineering" and real "certificati

So I know there's going to be someone coming in to complain that Software Engineers aren't "real engineers" and we need "real engineering" and real "certifications" so we can be "real engineers" First off I love Jeff Atwood's take on it https://blog.codinghorror.com/do-certifications-matter https://blog.codinghorror.com/do-certifications-matter. But I recently just passed my CISSP, had to for work, and it was one of the most obnoxious and pointless exercises I ever engaged. Most of the test involved questions about information that is hopelessly out of date, or incredibly pointless whose only value is for ivory tower PhDs to argue about in white papers whose only actual security experience is putting in their password to their laptop. I used to be sympathetic to an extent about the value of having a professional certifying body for software engineers, or something like that. Especially after having to debug JS by "full stack developers" who had just become "software engineers in 6 weeks". But after the CISSP racket I am enduring, I've realized a certfying body won't make software developers any more capable, it will only allow those who are the least qualified, to force arbitrary and capricious requirements onto people who actually care about the craft and are capble. /rant over.

dudul 3y ago
Is it the way it is for plumbers, electricians, physicians, lawyers, etc? I'm seriously asking and ready to accept a "yes", but the reality is a lot of other professions have certifications and controlling bodies. I wonder if, when being interviewed, plumbers have to jump through the same idiotic hoops developers have to suffer. My wife used to work as a nurse, her interviews were usually: do you have your certification paperwork? When can you start? No white boarding, no " tell me about a time you had to deal with a very difficult patient". Yeah yeah jobs are different but ffs, if I had a freaking paper to show that would save me 4 rounds of interviews I would be so happy. And yes, "innovation" may suffer. That's the usual argument, to which I say: good. I think we've reached a point in the history of technology where we need to chill out, take a deep breath and untangle the f ing mess we've created over the past decade.
- lukas099 3y ago
  > if I had a freaking paper to show that would save me 4 rounds of interviews I would be so happy. That's if you already had the paper. You are discounting the cost of getting the paper in the first place.
  - dudul 3y ago
    I'm not discounting it, it's an hypothetical paper so I don't know. Some poor souls already spend tens of thousands of dollars to go to college and don't even get this said paper.
  - EastBayGuy 3y ago
    Well, the license doesn't cost much beyond the cost of the degree. A few hundred in fees, and possibly a, very optional, grand on courses for exam prep.
    - lukas099 3y ago
      I meant including the cost in time, money, and effort of getting the degree.
      - OJFord 3y ago
        Most (? I assume?) software engineers have a degree anyway though, that's not an additional cost. CEng is more of a burden of time and bothering with the admin than it is a financial cost, compared to the degree you already have anyway. (It used to be my plan, but nobody cares, so I stopped bothering to progress towards it. Regret it in a way, since I think it was a good personal goal even if nobody else cares.)
  - lolinder 3y ago
    The cost of getting a license in the licensed professions is usually very standardized and reliable. You get the degree, you get your field experience, you pay a nominal fee, you pass the test, you get the piece of paper. If establishing a clear process like that would do away with the quagmire of poorly-designed and subjective interview processes that we currently deal with, I'd take it in a heartbeat.
panzagl 3y ago
The problem with CISSP and similar is that the US government wants certifications, the 'software industry' is totally disinterested in such a thing, so the 'certification professionals' have moved in and set up shop. It's hardly the same level as a Professional Engineer or similar accreditation that is required before you're allowed to sign off on 'real engineering' projects.

dudul 3y ago

Is it the way it is for plumbers, electricians, physicians, lawyers, etc? I'm seriously asking and ready to accept a "yes", but the reality is a lot of other professions have certifications and controlling bodies. I wonder if, when being interviewed, plumbers have to jump through the same idiotic hoops developers have to suffer. My wife used to work as a nurse, her interviews were usually: do you have your certification paperwork? When can you start? No white boarding, no " tell me about a time you had to deal with a very difficult patient". Yeah yeah jobs are different but ffs, if I had a freaking paper to show that would save me 4 rounds of interviews I would be so happy. And yes, "innovation" may suffer. That's the usual argument, to which I say: good. I think we've reached a point in the history of technology where we need to chill out, take a deep breath and untangle the f ing mess we've created over the past decade.

lukas099 3y ago
> if I had a freaking paper to show that would save me 4 rounds of interviews I would be so happy. That's if you already had the paper. You are discounting the cost of getting the paper in the first place.
- dudul 3y ago
  I'm not discounting it, it's an hypothetical paper so I don't know. Some poor souls already spend tens of thousands of dollars to go to college and don't even get this said paper.
- EastBayGuy 3y ago
  Well, the license doesn't cost much beyond the cost of the degree. A few hundred in fees, and possibly a, very optional, grand on courses for exam prep.
  - lukas099 3y ago
    I meant including the cost in time, money, and effort of getting the degree.
    - OJFord 3y ago
      Most (? I assume?) software engineers have a degree anyway though, that's not an additional cost. CEng is more of a burden of time and bothering with the admin than it is a financial cost, compared to the degree you already have anyway. (It used to be my plan, but nobody cares, so I stopped bothering to progress towards it. Regret it in a way, since I think it was a good personal goal even if nobody else cares.)
- lolinder 3y ago
  The cost of getting a license in the licensed professions is usually very standardized and reliable. You get the degree, you get your field experience, you pay a nominal fee, you pass the test, you get the piece of paper. If establishing a clear process like that would do away with the quagmire of poorly-designed and subjective interview processes that we currently deal with, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

panzagl 3y ago

The problem with CISSP and similar is that the US government wants certifications, the 'software industry' is totally disinterested in such a thing, so the 'certification professionals' have moved in and set up shop. It's hardly the same level as a Professional Engineer or similar accreditation that is required before you're allowed to sign off on 'real engineering' projects.