5 ms·

This seems perilously close to the green color of traffic lights. Is there any reason to use anything close to the existing spectrum of green (drive quickly in

This seems perilously close to the green color of traffic lights. Is there any reason to use anything close to the existing spectrum of green (drive quickly into this light) or blue (emergency) for this? Why not purple? Do bear in mind they selected turquoise which is just equal parts blue and green light. Like, why would you do that if you had any other choice? Color perception is a tricky thing as anyone who has ever painted a house knows. The ambient can deeply affect it, and people have different perceptions of color in their eyes to say nothing of those with Tritanomaly who simply won’t be able to discern these colors at all. And then there’s lots of traffic lights already have kind of a turquoise color. Just look for yourself: http://www.google.com/search?q=green+traffic+light&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch http://www.google.com/search?q=green+traffic+light&prmd=imvn... Is that really the best choice? Really? Seems kinda short sighted, so to speak.

barryrandall 3y ago
They also look like the low-quality aftermarket headlights that are ubiquitous on US roads.
- happytiger 3y ago
  Light purple is the preferred color of a good nighttime LED headlight blinding. I winced at this comment because I felt what it felt like when I read it. The trauma is real.
airstrike 3y ago
Agreed. Many green traffic lights do look quite turquoisy. A Deep Purple might have been better and cooler
- qmarchi 3y ago
  If you want "green" traffic lights, check out Japan's. Due to historical reasons, and to comply with international standards, they changed the meaning of the color to match the existing street lights.
  - jona-f 3y ago
    I don't think that is quite right. Afaik, historically, in japan, green is a shade of blue. And they didn't comply with international standards, they aren't part of the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals.
    - arjie 3y ago
      This is how traffic lights looked when I was there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37988388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37988388 Photos on a Canon consumer-level DSLR and on a Pixel 3 phone https://imgur.com/a/S815y7o https://imgur.com/a/S815y7o
Zetobal 3y ago
What's your problem exactly? That people could mistake the cars lights as traffic lights? Looks like non-issue 4 MBAs could hold 8 meetings over.
- happytiger 3y ago
  I’d like to submit my resignation and unsubscribe to this newsletter please?
CharlesW 3y ago
> Color perception is a tricky thing as anyone who has ever painted a house knows. Also, 8% of men have some form of colorblindness.
- lb1lf 3y ago
  As part of that subgroup, I think 'colorblindness' is a stigmatising term. I prefer 'chromatographically challenged'. I'll lead myself out.
  - elzbardico 3y ago
    The same here. Things for me are pretty much in color as if in a giant OLED screen. It is just that some very specific hues of yellow and green look different to me compared to standard vision people.
  - data-ottawa 3y ago
    I’ve never really liked “colourblind” as a term because I can see colour, just differently, which always surprises people in the “oh, what colour is this” game they play after finding out. I’m not a fan of “chromatographically challenged”, I would prefer colour vision defficiency even to it. Dichromat, or anomalous trichromatic are accurate, but I don’t think people will adopt them…
- ahahahahah 3y ago
  Yes. And of course that was accounted for when choosing the color and in fact was one of the areas where the turquoise choice clearer outperformed other choices. Read more here: https://wiki.unece.org/download/attachments/75532788/AVSR-03-02e.pdf?api=v2 https://wiki.unece.org/download/attachments/75532788/AVSR-03...
  - happytiger 3y ago
    They had actually evaluated aqua and purple, and chose aqua because it was more visible? This isn’t critical road information. Why does it need to use the most visible spectrum, and the spectrum closest to blue/green confusion possibilities?
codexb 3y ago
> Perilously close to the green color of traffic lights In the same way that brake lights are perilously close the same color as traffic lights? Or that the amber to red color of turn signals is close to traffic colors as well? How is this perilous? I suspect the choice of blue/green over purple or violet has more to do with daytime visibility, which is the same reason blue was chosen for emergency vehicles.
- dwringer 3y ago
  Brake lights being the color of stop lights is helpful because it's a reminder to stop, just as turn signals being the color of caution lights is helpful as a reminder to be cautious of a turning vehicle. Green lights don't fall into either category, being generally a cue to step on the gas.
  - windows2020 3y ago
    For an example of lack of respect for existing patterns, see the HAWK signal.
    - theamk 3y ago
      that one is so crazy.. how on earth could anyone think that re-purposing "STOP RIGHT AWAY OR YOU WILL BE HIT BY TRAIN" signal into "ok to proceed after stop" was a good idea?
      - windows2020 3y ago
        The first time I encountered one it was off. So, I alone slowed thinking it was malfunctioning. Even worse is when the power goes out, these default to indicating there is no one there.
    - happytiger 3y ago
      I thought that was going to be awesome because of the name. So disappointed lol. For those who don’t know this name, even if you’ve seen it, here is an great discussion about it: https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/30/roadshow-gasp-clearing-confusion-of-new-hawk-signals/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/30/roadshow-gasp-clearin... > No. During a flashing red, a driver may proceed if the pedestrian/bicycle rider has cleared their lanes of travel. (And people are deeply confused about this: https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/comments/brqwbc/reminder_flashing_red_light_at_a_hawk_signal/ https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/comments/brqwbc/reminder_fl...) > Drivers should always use caution while passing a HAWK signal as a pedestrian or bicyclist may fail to push the activation button and begin to cross. How? What? Who designs things like this?
paxys 3y ago
Wait till you find out what color brake lights on cars are...
elzbardico 3y ago
Traffic lights are installed in infra-structure, those lights in cars. If drivers get confused by this, maybe they shouldn't be driving.
- happytiger 3y ago
  Haha. People can’t even pay attention to gigantic lines on the road, giant red signs, and bright lights in their faces with any reliability. And you want them to stop driving because they should be able to distinguish a moving from a fixed light?
  - elzbardico 3y ago
    Yes. I have this strange desire not to die in a completely avoidable manner because people who shouldn't be driving are driving. I lived for a time in Germany, drivers there seem to have no problem with that kind of basic thing. And mind you, not only German drivers, but people who came from all over the world, no matter how fucked the traffic on their home countries is, seem to learn quite well how to drive in a civilized and efficient manner like the Germans. I don't care if people think they are entitled to drive no matter how badly they approach this task as long as they don't risk my fucking life. Do someone want to be a jerk, text and drive at 100 mph? Them buy themselves a farm, build themselves a road, propel themselves into a wall to die in a ball of fire: not my fucking business. Doing the same stuff in the same road other people are using? Well, now I have a problem with that person, and it is only reasonable that I expect them to show some respect for other's people lives. It is not that hard. People should be expected to pay attention when controlling a fucking heavy bolide of steel death.
numpad0 3y ago
Human eyeballs have shallower color depth in blue
ahahahahah 3y ago
Yes, of course the closeness to the color of traffic lights was considered. Like do you think these people are fucking idiots? You can read more here: https://wiki.unece.org/download/attachments/75532788/AVSR-03-02e.pdf?api=v2 https://wiki.unece.org/download/attachments/75532788/AVSR-03...
- ahahahahah 3y ago
  That also addresses your question "why not purple", as that was one of the options they explicitly consider. Specifically where turquoise was preferred over purple: 1. In the central visibility field, people are more sensitive to turquoise than to purple 2. purple has poorer visibility/discriminability when accounting for color vision deficiencies 3. Studies on colour preferences reveal bluish colours to be the most positively rated worldwide
  - happytiger 3y ago
    Why use the highest visibility available color spectrum available for something as trivial as indicating whether a car is under computer control? Seems like you’d want to use it for something important. Especially as the only remaining color isn’t as good for those with color issues in their eyes. It’s in no way critical to other road users to know. Witness how completely unnecessary for the current generation of level 1 and 2 self-driving technologies. We have no light. Nothing is missing from the driving experience. Other road users do not care. What makes it so critical that people are aware that computer-controlled cruise control is operating? And yes, I think a lot of decisions are made by idiots. Many decisions are made for reasons besides common sense. Logic is just a small contributor to why giant bureaucracies make decisions, and sometimes it doesnt survive the process of becoming a standard. So in general I think it’s incredibly important to question what look like a lack of common sense, even if there is a study. Can’t tell you the number of times the obvious solution that became a standard turned out to be dumb or wrong when it came into contact with the real world. The justification from Mercedes is: > The turquoise lights are needed, according to Mercedes, to alert passing drivers and police that the vehicle is under fully automated control. That way, when someone outside the vehicle sees the driver looking away from the road, they don't think the driver is doing something wrong. This is a truly dumb justification for use of one of the most important spectrum lights remaining for automotive. This is in absolutely no way mission critical or even critically important information to other road users. It’s nonsense and more driven by marketing than substantive need for some innovation to handle a use case that matters in any way. It’s great for cops. They can finally be completely sure of that phone ticket.

barryrandall 3y ago

They also look like the low-quality aftermarket headlights that are ubiquitous on US roads.

happytiger 3y ago
Light purple is the preferred color of a good nighttime LED headlight blinding. I winced at this comment because I felt what it felt like when I read it. The trauma is real.

airstrike 3y ago

Agreed. Many green traffic lights do look quite turquoisy. A Deep Purple might have been better and cooler

qmarchi 3y ago
If you want "green" traffic lights, check out Japan's. Due to historical reasons, and to comply with international standards, they changed the meaning of the color to match the existing street lights.
- jona-f 3y ago
  I don't think that is quite right. Afaik, historically, in japan, green is a shade of blue. And they didn't comply with international standards, they aren't part of the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals.
  - arjie 3y ago
    This is how traffic lights looked when I was there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37988388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37988388 Photos on a Canon consumer-level DSLR and on a Pixel 3 phone https://imgur.com/a/S815y7o https://imgur.com/a/S815y7o

Zetobal 3y ago

What's your problem exactly? That people could mistake the cars lights as traffic lights? Looks like non-issue 4 MBAs could hold 8 meetings over.

happytiger 3y ago
I’d like to submit my resignation and unsubscribe to this newsletter please?

CharlesW 3y ago

> Color perception is a tricky thing as anyone who has ever painted a house knows. Also, 8% of men have some form of colorblindness.

lb1lf 3y ago
As part of that subgroup, I think 'colorblindness' is a stigmatising term. I prefer 'chromatographically challenged'. I'll lead myself out.
- elzbardico 3y ago
  The same here. Things for me are pretty much in color as if in a giant OLED screen. It is just that some very specific hues of yellow and green look different to me compared to standard vision people.
- data-ottawa 3y ago
  I’ve never really liked “colourblind” as a term because I can see colour, just differently, which always surprises people in the “oh, what colour is this” game they play after finding out. I’m not a fan of “chromatographically challenged”, I would prefer colour vision defficiency even to it. Dichromat, or anomalous trichromatic are accurate, but I don’t think people will adopt them…
ahahahahah 3y ago
Yes. And of course that was accounted for when choosing the color and in fact was one of the areas where the turquoise choice clearer outperformed other choices. Read more here: https://wiki.unece.org/download/attachments/75532788/AVSR-03-02e.pdf?api=v2 https://wiki.unece.org/download/attachments/75532788/AVSR-03...
- happytiger 3y ago
  They had actually evaluated aqua and purple, and chose aqua because it was more visible? This isn’t critical road information. Why does it need to use the most visible spectrum, and the spectrum closest to blue/green confusion possibilities?

codexb 3y ago

> Perilously close to the green color of traffic lights In the same way that brake lights are perilously close the same color as traffic lights? Or that the amber to red color of turn signals is close to traffic colors as well? How is this perilous? I suspect the choice of blue/green over purple or violet has more to do with daytime visibility, which is the same reason blue was chosen for emergency vehicles.

dwringer 3y ago
Brake lights being the color of stop lights is helpful because it's a reminder to stop, just as turn signals being the color of caution lights is helpful as a reminder to be cautious of a turning vehicle. Green lights don't fall into either category, being generally a cue to step on the gas.
- windows2020 3y ago
  For an example of lack of respect for existing patterns, see the HAWK signal.
  - theamk 3y ago
    that one is so crazy.. how on earth could anyone think that re-purposing "STOP RIGHT AWAY OR YOU WILL BE HIT BY TRAIN" signal into "ok to proceed after stop" was a good idea?
    - windows2020 3y ago
      The first time I encountered one it was off. So, I alone slowed thinking it was malfunctioning. Even worse is when the power goes out, these default to indicating there is no one there.
  - happytiger 3y ago
    I thought that was going to be awesome because of the name. So disappointed lol. For those who don’t know this name, even if you’ve seen it, here is an great discussion about it: https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/30/roadshow-gasp-clearing-confusion-of-new-hawk-signals/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/30/roadshow-gasp-clearin... > No. During a flashing red, a driver may proceed if the pedestrian/bicycle rider has cleared their lanes of travel. (And people are deeply confused about this: https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/comments/brqwbc/reminder_flashing_red_light_at_a_hawk_signal/ https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/comments/brqwbc/reminder_fl...) > Drivers should always use caution while passing a HAWK signal as a pedestrian or bicyclist may fail to push the activation button and begin to cross. How? What? Who designs things like this?

paxys 3y ago

Wait till you find out what color brake lights on cars are...

elzbardico 3y ago

Traffic lights are installed in infra-structure, those lights in cars. If drivers get confused by this, maybe they shouldn't be driving.

happytiger 3y ago
Haha. People can’t even pay attention to gigantic lines on the road, giant red signs, and bright lights in their faces with any reliability. And you want them to stop driving because they should be able to distinguish a moving from a fixed light?
- elzbardico 3y ago
  Yes. I have this strange desire not to die in a completely avoidable manner because people who shouldn't be driving are driving. I lived for a time in Germany, drivers there seem to have no problem with that kind of basic thing. And mind you, not only German drivers, but people who came from all over the world, no matter how fucked the traffic on their home countries is, seem to learn quite well how to drive in a civilized and efficient manner like the Germans. I don't care if people think they are entitled to drive no matter how badly they approach this task as long as they don't risk my fucking life. Do someone want to be a jerk, text and drive at 100 mph? Them buy themselves a farm, build themselves a road, propel themselves into a wall to die in a ball of fire: not my fucking business. Doing the same stuff in the same road other people are using? Well, now I have a problem with that person, and it is only reasonable that I expect them to show some respect for other's people lives. It is not that hard. People should be expected to pay attention when controlling a fucking heavy bolide of steel death.

numpad0 3y ago

Human eyeballs have shallower color depth in blue

ahahahahah 3y ago

Yes, of course the closeness to the color of traffic lights was considered. Like do you think these people are fucking idiots? You can read more here: https://wiki.unece.org/download/attachments/75532788/AVSR-03-02e.pdf?api=v2 https://wiki.unece.org/download/attachments/75532788/AVSR-03...

ahahahahah 3y ago
That also addresses your question "why not purple", as that was one of the options they explicitly consider. Specifically where turquoise was preferred over purple: 1. In the central visibility field, people are more sensitive to turquoise than to purple 2. purple has poorer visibility/discriminability when accounting for color vision deficiencies 3. Studies on colour preferences reveal bluish colours to be the most positively rated worldwide
- happytiger 3y ago
  Why use the highest visibility available color spectrum available for something as trivial as indicating whether a car is under computer control? Seems like you’d want to use it for something important. Especially as the only remaining color isn’t as good for those with color issues in their eyes. It’s in no way critical to other road users to know. Witness how completely unnecessary for the current generation of level 1 and 2 self-driving technologies. We have no light. Nothing is missing from the driving experience. Other road users do not care. What makes it so critical that people are aware that computer-controlled cruise control is operating? And yes, I think a lot of decisions are made by idiots. Many decisions are made for reasons besides common sense. Logic is just a small contributor to why giant bureaucracies make decisions, and sometimes it doesnt survive the process of becoming a standard. So in general I think it’s incredibly important to question what look like a lack of common sense, even if there is a study. Can’t tell you the number of times the obvious solution that became a standard turned out to be dumb or wrong when it came into contact with the real world. The justification from Mercedes is: > The turquoise lights are needed, according to Mercedes, to alert passing drivers and police that the vehicle is under fully automated control. That way, when someone outside the vehicle sees the driver looking away from the road, they don't think the driver is doing something wrong. This is a truly dumb justification for use of one of the most important spectrum lights remaining for automotive. This is in absolutely no way mission critical or even critically important information to other road users. It’s nonsense and more driven by marketing than substantive need for some innovation to handle a use case that matters in any way. It’s great for cops. They can finally be completely sure of that phone ticket.