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> It's not fair to complain about Wayland when it's app developers that are not modernizing. How do they modernize? Like you point out, Wayland isn't new. So,

> It's not fair to complain about Wayland when it's app developers that are not modernizing. How do they modernize? Like you point out, Wayland isn't new. So, I would repeat: > I would challenge anyone to find a good tutorial online written at a level that novice developers can understand that walks through how to make sure that a Wayland app is accessible, what changes need to be made from X11, and what the common problems or pitfalls are that developers might face. "Need to modernize" is worthless advice without follow-up advice about what needs to be done to modernize. How many developers building apps for Linux even know what the at-spi protocol is? ---- But more to the point: > It's not fair I'm not blaming Wayland devs. I like a lot of Wayland's approach to controls and structure, I agree with a lot of the development philosophy. This isn't about what's fair, I'm telling you that because Wayland is the future and because X11 is a dead end, if users with accessibility concerns can't use Wayland and they can't stick with X11 (which will become increasingly difficult for them to do as X11 decays more and more), they will leave the Linux ecosystem entirely because they will not be physically able to use it. It does not matter who's fault that is. Is it fair? Who cares, it's going to happen regardless if the accessibility situation doesn't improve. This is just kicking the can back and forth, blaming application developers changes nothing about the situation that people are in. If application developers need to modernize, then the question becomes "how do we make that easier for them to do and how do we encourage more of them to do it?" Because clearly the current approach of calling them lazy doesn't seem to be working.

Alupis 3y ago
XWayland does not seem to be going away anytime soon. So until it does (if it ever does), X11 apps will continue to work. I don't use accessibility features, but I do daily drive a Wayland system (Fedora 39 and 38) and have experienced zero issues. I honestly don't even know what system any given app is trying to use - it all "just works". That is to say I don't believe the sky is falling like some people make it sound. With that said - the more pressure that is placed on app developers to figure it out, the better. Kicking the can down the road just because XWayland works today is foolish. If you have an app that you rely on that uses X11 exclusively - you should complain to the app developers today so that tomorrow it doesn't stop working.
- danShumway 3y ago
  > I don't use accessibility features, but I do daily drive a Wayland system (Fedora 39 and 38) and have experienced zero issues. The entire Linux conversation on accessibility summed up in one sentence. > If you have an app that you rely on that uses X11 exclusively - you should complain to the app developers today so that tomorrow it doesn't stop working. And when they say, "we agree, what specifically do we need to do to be accessible under Wayland", what do I tell them?
  - Alupis 3y ago
    What does not work with XWayland? What cannot be accomplished with ATK/AT-SPI? It's literally all there... but alas, we love to complain.
    - danShumway 3y ago
      > What cannot be accomplished with ATK/AT-SPI? Documentation and tutorials. I see X11 devs who aren't even looking at Wayland struggling with this stuff. It is very, very clearly not as easy as you are making it sound. Nor are you in a position to say that everything works if you don't use accessibility controls. You're very confident that the at-spi protocol is fine for everything given that you are someone who does not rely on the at-spi protocol to use a computer and who does not use it as a daily driver. I am inclined to say that if users who do rely on accessibility controls on a daily basis are complaining, probably they're not making up their complaints. Who's fault it is that they're running into issues? Again, it doesn't really matter, the issues persist.
      - Alupis 3y ago
        > I am inclined to say that if users who do rely on accessibility controls are complaining, probably they're not making up their complaints. This entire thread started off by someone saying untrue rumors about Wayland and DE's regarding accessibility - so excuse everyone who thinks the complaints are likely misguided. Again - if something is lacking in Wayland compatibility - now - is the time to ask app developers to update. If for some reason it cannot be done in Wayland, it should be reported to the Wayland project! This is not rocket science... Right now XWayland works as it should. So provide some specifics or get off the pot...

Alupis 3y ago

XWayland does not seem to be going away anytime soon. So until it does (if it ever does), X11 apps will continue to work. I don't use accessibility features, but I do daily drive a Wayland system (Fedora 39 and 38) and have experienced zero issues. I honestly don't even know what system any given app is trying to use - it all "just works". That is to say I don't believe the sky is falling like some people make it sound. With that said - the more pressure that is placed on app developers to figure it out, the better. Kicking the can down the road just because XWayland works today is foolish. If you have an app that you rely on that uses X11 exclusively - you should complain to the app developers today so that tomorrow it doesn't stop working.

danShumway 3y ago
> I don't use accessibility features, but I do daily drive a Wayland system (Fedora 39 and 38) and have experienced zero issues. The entire Linux conversation on accessibility summed up in one sentence. > If you have an app that you rely on that uses X11 exclusively - you should complain to the app developers today so that tomorrow it doesn't stop working. And when they say, "we agree, what specifically do we need to do to be accessible under Wayland", what do I tell them?
- Alupis 3y ago
  What does not work with XWayland? What cannot be accomplished with ATK/AT-SPI? It's literally all there... but alas, we love to complain.
  - danShumway 3y ago
    > What cannot be accomplished with ATK/AT-SPI? Documentation and tutorials. I see X11 devs who aren't even looking at Wayland struggling with this stuff. It is very, very clearly not as easy as you are making it sound. Nor are you in a position to say that everything works if you don't use accessibility controls. You're very confident that the at-spi protocol is fine for everything given that you are someone who does not rely on the at-spi protocol to use a computer and who does not use it as a daily driver. I am inclined to say that if users who do rely on accessibility controls on a daily basis are complaining, probably they're not making up their complaints. Who's fault it is that they're running into issues? Again, it doesn't really matter, the issues persist.
    - Alupis 3y ago
      > I am inclined to say that if users who do rely on accessibility controls are complaining, probably they're not making up their complaints. This entire thread started off by someone saying untrue rumors about Wayland and DE's regarding accessibility - so excuse everyone who thinks the complaints are likely misguided. Again - if something is lacking in Wayland compatibility - now - is the time to ask app developers to update. If for some reason it cannot be done in Wayland, it should be reported to the Wayland project! This is not rocket science... Right now XWayland works as it should. So provide some specifics or get off the pot...