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WARNING: RANT MODE ON. So what happens when you need to have a serious talk with someone for screwing up and everyone's in a terrible mood afterwards? Do you

by carguy1983 14y ago

WARNING: RANT MODE ON. So what happens when you need to have a serious talk with someone for screwing up and everyone's in a terrible mood afterwards? Do you expect them to also join you at dinner? Or is their punishment that they have to pretend to be happy for the happiness manager? Or is their punishment that they don't get to join you, banished to a microwave meal at home while everyone else sings and dances and eats grass fed sustainably raised mutton raised in a westward-sloping Polyface-esque agrarian paradise just north of Petaluma, served on a bed of organic microgreens and wilted white kale and drinks low sulfide wine from the Willamette Valley with just a hint of raspberries on the nose and a dry finish with notes of oak and lavender? Or does the 1% you're looking for also not ever make mistakes, and gets along perfectly all the time, just like a real family? The thing about these kinds of blog posts is that they are thinly disguised recruiting / marketing efforts and inexperienced people take them as some sort of gospel - nobody ever talks about the time when the team is at each others' throats because someone (or everyone) fucked something critical up and lost $50k and 2 months of work, or petty workplace politics or sexual / drinking / druggie relationships or any of that - which always creep into this sort of hippy dippy communal meals big extended family type stuff and really just adds more trouble than it's really worth. I've worked exclusively at startups since 1999 and let me tell you, this shit happens. It all happens, all the time. People throw words at each other. People cuss and get into disagreements, people fuck up, people are very serious about very serious things, especially when TONS of money is involved. Like MILLIONS of dollars of owner and investor money. What this is - is corporate bullshit dressed up as culture, and it's fucking flabbergasting to me that it's making its way into startups!!!

littledude 14y ago
lots of startups eat together, look into zerocater and how they started their whole business around this concept. even ycombinator has big dinners with multiple startups regularly. it's not uncommon at all and accepted at good practice by lots of companies. i don't understand why you're making this out to be some negative experience.
- carguy1983 14y ago
  It's simply not scaleable, and shouldn't be a goal for a startup - if it happens naturally, great everyone loves each other, but it shouldn't be somebody's job description to organize this sort of thing with an implication of alienation if one doesn't partake. As a company grows larger people are not going to be cooking for each other and the boss isn't going to spend $1k a day on lunch and dinner.
  - rdl 14y ago
    $1k/day for lunch and dinner is fine once you have 20 employees generating $300k/yr each (i.e. a salary of $100k, costs/benefits of another $50k or so, and generating more than they cost by 2x).
    - carguy1983 14y ago
      I'm talking about all-together meals, not cafeteria and catering which is totally normal and acceptable by pretty much everybody.
wonnage 14y ago
I've worked in these sorts of communal environments for the past six years and never had a problem. I happen to have friends and family who I have occasional disagreements with too. It's just eating together. Can't make it one day? It's not a mandatory meeting or something. Maybe you just don't work well with that?
- carguy1983 14y ago
  > It's not a mandatory meeting or something Try missing 20 in a row, because you'd much rather eat with your friends or SO. What happens? The happiness manager comes and pays you a visit is what happens.
  - danthony 14y ago
    Well yeah, if the rest of your company regularly does something fun together, and you can't be bothered 1 time in 20, then you're probably not a good cultural fit. Like it or not, a workplace is a community. And the norms of communities will differ. There's no need to shit on places that work differently than you're used to. Just don't work at those kinds of places. What's more, it doesn't make any sense to assume that your views are the same as "99%" of people without any evidence.
jasonshen 14y ago
Every group of people, no matter how much they like or respect each other, will have serious disagreements. How you resolve those disagreements is what matters. There has never been any "at each other's throats" here. Eating together facilitates communication and understanding with a group, which makes it more likely that conflicts will be resolved in a productive manner. Again, this is what works for us and yes, we hope to attract people who find this kind of culture compelling. Appreciate your taking the time to discuss these topics with us.
ajross 14y ago
> Or does the 1% you're looking for also not ever make mistakes, and gets along perfectly all the time, just like a real family? I don't see the point of your rant; your sarcasm seems to be cutting in two directions at once. Obviously real families do have strife and deal with it. When the 16 year old wrecks the family car, everyone still has to sit down at the same table. When the twins get into a fistfight they're still expected to go to school together. None of that means that they shouldn't be trying to act like a family when things don't suck. So yeah, when the boss has to cuss someone out it sucks for everyone. That doesn't mean you can't sit down to lunch together.
- carguy1983 14y ago
  A company is not a family. Repeat after me: a company is not a family. In families, mom and dad are probably fucking on a regular basis. They also fight over trivialities and cheat on each other. The kids are CHILDREN who make mistakes, and have fewer legal rights than the adults. The parent(s) fund the whole thing by working for someone else, the children are basically leeches that do not contribute to the profits of the family. They all live together and sleep next to each other and spend enough time with each other to hate each other sometimes. They fight over limited resources and the ultimate goal of a successful family is to eventually disband socially. They spend all day separated from each other, and come together at night to spend money and time on things together. Does this sound like any sort of company you'd want to work at?

littledude 14y ago

lots of startups eat together, look into zerocater and how they started their whole business around this concept. even ycombinator has big dinners with multiple startups regularly. it's not uncommon at all and accepted at good practice by lots of companies. i don't understand why you're making this out to be some negative experience.

carguy1983 14y ago
It's simply not scaleable, and shouldn't be a goal for a startup - if it happens naturally, great everyone loves each other, but it shouldn't be somebody's job description to organize this sort of thing with an implication of alienation if one doesn't partake. As a company grows larger people are not going to be cooking for each other and the boss isn't going to spend $1k a day on lunch and dinner.
- rdl 14y ago
  $1k/day for lunch and dinner is fine once you have 20 employees generating $300k/yr each (i.e. a salary of $100k, costs/benefits of another $50k or so, and generating more than they cost by 2x).
  - carguy1983 14y ago
    I'm talking about all-together meals, not cafeteria and catering which is totally normal and acceptable by pretty much everybody.

wonnage 14y ago

I've worked in these sorts of communal environments for the past six years and never had a problem. I happen to have friends and family who I have occasional disagreements with too. It's just eating together. Can't make it one day? It's not a mandatory meeting or something. Maybe you just don't work well with that?

carguy1983 14y ago
> It's not a mandatory meeting or something Try missing 20 in a row, because you'd much rather eat with your friends or SO. What happens? The happiness manager comes and pays you a visit is what happens.
- danthony 14y ago
  Well yeah, if the rest of your company regularly does something fun together, and you can't be bothered 1 time in 20, then you're probably not a good cultural fit. Like it or not, a workplace is a community. And the norms of communities will differ. There's no need to shit on places that work differently than you're used to. Just don't work at those kinds of places. What's more, it doesn't make any sense to assume that your views are the same as "99%" of people without any evidence.

jasonshen 14y ago

Every group of people, no matter how much they like or respect each other, will have serious disagreements. How you resolve those disagreements is what matters. There has never been any "at each other's throats" here. Eating together facilitates communication and understanding with a group, which makes it more likely that conflicts will be resolved in a productive manner. Again, this is what works for us and yes, we hope to attract people who find this kind of culture compelling. Appreciate your taking the time to discuss these topics with us.

ajross 14y ago

> Or does the 1% you're looking for also not ever make mistakes, and gets along perfectly all the time, just like a real family? I don't see the point of your rant; your sarcasm seems to be cutting in two directions at once. Obviously real families do have strife and deal with it. When the 16 year old wrecks the family car, everyone still has to sit down at the same table. When the twins get into a fistfight they're still expected to go to school together. None of that means that they shouldn't be trying to act like a family when things don't suck. So yeah, when the boss has to cuss someone out it sucks for everyone. That doesn't mean you can't sit down to lunch together.

carguy1983 14y ago
A company is not a family. Repeat after me: a company is not a family. In families, mom and dad are probably fucking on a regular basis. They also fight over trivialities and cheat on each other. The kids are CHILDREN who make mistakes, and have fewer legal rights than the adults. The parent(s) fund the whole thing by working for someone else, the children are basically leeches that do not contribute to the profits of the family. They all live together and sleep next to each other and spend enough time with each other to hate each other sometimes. They fight over limited resources and the ultimate goal of a successful family is to eventually disband socially. They spend all day separated from each other, and come together at night to spend money and time on things together. Does this sound like any sort of company you'd want to work at?