4 ms·

Would agree. Some old school journalists from NYT wrote about that phenomenon. Colleagues doing a lot of stories that were basically the groupthink of their fr

Would agree. Some old school journalists from NYT wrote about that phenomenon. Colleagues doing a lot of stories that were basically the groupthink of their friend group or what they saw on Twitter. Part of it is economics/incentives leading journalists to have to churn out a lot of content. Part of it is laziness as it's a lot easier than going out into the field and actually talking to people.

steveBK123 3y ago
One sourcing was this interview with NYT publisher - https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-new-yorker-interview/a-g-sulzberger-on-the-battles-within-and-against-the-new-york-times https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-new-yorker-interview/a... From this part: Are you saying that’s changed? That reporters are just sitting in rooms in front of a screen? I don’t think that’s the case. Of course it’s the case! It’s the least talked-about and most insidious result of the collapse of the business model that historically supported quality journalism.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- anileated 3y ago
  In the day when a lot happens online, purely sitting in front of a screen it’s possible to produce excellent and deep investigative stories. You do own open-source intelligence, you interview sources, etc., all while in front of the screen. Bellingcat does it on a regular basis, for example. You do not need to step out of your room to spot lies and discrepancies.
  - steveBK123 3y ago
    Yes & No. Twitter, it is always worth remembering, is not real life. The opinions you encounter as typical there tend to be the very fringe single digit percents of each political faction. Viewing the world through it exclusively is perilous.
    - anileated 3y ago
      When someone publishes a recording that is verifiably Russian bombing of Syria, and claims it to be Israeli bombing of Gaza, it is not a matter of “opinion”. And investigative journalism has nothing to do with Twitter in particular. However, do remember that Twitter (as well as Facebook, TikTok, Hacker News, Mastodon, email, Matrix, WhatsApp, or what have you) is as much part of real life as anything else, online and off, is part of real life. It is not some proverbial Las Vegas where nothing counts.
AniseAbyss 3y ago
[dead]
makeitdouble 3y ago
That sounds a lot like how "news" were sourced before that, with random interviews at street corners near the newspaper's office, stuff they heard at parties and from friends. I don't believe there has been a fundamental shift on how much people are willing to put work into their pieces.
- adolph 3y ago
  “Random interviews” Gregory F. Packer (born December 18, 1963), is a retired[1] American highway maintenance worker from Huntington, New York, best known for frequently being quoted as a "man on the street" in newspapers, magazines and television broadcasts from 1995 to the present. He has been quoted in hundreds of articles and television broadcasts as a member of the public (that is, a "man on the street" rather than a newsmaker or expert). Although he always gives his real name, he has admitted to making things up to get into the paper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Packer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Packer
- steveBK123 3y ago
  > I don't believe there has been a fundamental shift on how much people are willing to put work into their pieces. Publisher of NYTimes is on the record in a few interviews basically saying that yes, his journalists are putting in less work into their pieces (because they are forced to produce more pieces per day).
mattmanser 3y ago
You used to get the same phenomena in broadsheets before that though. I saw it frequently in the Sunday (maybe Saturday?) magazine included in the big UK papers. I remember coming to the realization when reading a fluff piece that the author had basically interviewed their mates and made it a story. I think the specific article was about marrying later, and they'd just interviewed a bunch of uni-educated people of a certain socio-economic wealth. No stats, no experts, just 'gut' feeling about what was happening. And once you saw it, you realized a significant chunk of the non-news stories were like that. This was in the 90s/00s. I think a lot of lifestyle articles have been that way for a long time, pre-internet, it's just that the lifestyle articles are more prominent now.
rvba 3y ago
Sometimes those looked like sock puppet accounts of the journalist. 1. Make few accounts on twitter 2. Post some bullshit 3. Quote it
mckern 3y ago
In fact, The Economist published a 17,000 word un-paywalled piece [0] recently about the NYT's group think problem. [0] https://www.economist.com/1843/2023/12/14/when-the-new-york-times-lost-its-way https://www.economist.com/1843/2023/12/14/when-the-new-york-...
- steveBK123 3y ago
  Yes! I hadn't managed to sit through and read the thing until now, though I've seen a number of interesting excerpts quoted. Two that really stuck out to me was- Even columnists with impeccable leftist bona fides recoiled from tackling subjects when their point of view might depart from progressive orthodoxy. I once complimented a long-time, left-leaning Opinion writer over a column criticising Democrats in Congress for doing something stupid. Trying to encourage more such journalism and thus less such stupidity, I remarked that this kind of argument had more influence than yet another Trump-is-a-devil column. “I know,” he replied, ruefully. “But Twitter hates it.” Trying to be helpful, one of the top newsroom editors urged me to start attaching trigger warnings to pieces by conservatives. It had not occurred to him how this would stigmatise certain colleagues, or what it would say to the world about the Times’s own bias. By their nature, information bubbles are powerfully self-reinforcing, and I think many Times staff have little idea how closed their world has become, or how far they are from fulfilling their compact with readers to show the world “without fear or favour”.
- 1over137 3y ago
  Maybe I'm old, but didn't the NYT used to be very right-wing?
  - Robotbeat 3y ago
    20 years ago, when I was right-wing myself (in College Republicans, etc), the AM radio I listened to and people I talked to all thought NYT was very left-wing ("liberal").
    - ruszki 3y ago
      Liberalism wasn’t a question of left or right 10+ years ago.
jeanchen 3y ago
As the old saying goes, "news is what happens to the editor."

steveBK123 3y ago

One sourcing was this interview with NYT publisher - https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-new-yorker-interview/a-g-sulzberger-on-the-battles-within-and-against-the-new-york-times https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-new-yorker-interview/a... From this part: Are you saying that’s changed? That reporters are just sitting in rooms in front of a screen? I don’t think that’s the case. Of course it’s the case! It’s the least talked-about and most insidious result of the collapse of the business model that historically supported quality journalism.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
anileated 3y ago
In the day when a lot happens online, purely sitting in front of a screen it’s possible to produce excellent and deep investigative stories. You do own open-source intelligence, you interview sources, etc., all while in front of the screen. Bellingcat does it on a regular basis, for example. You do not need to step out of your room to spot lies and discrepancies.
- steveBK123 3y ago
  Yes & No. Twitter, it is always worth remembering, is not real life. The opinions you encounter as typical there tend to be the very fringe single digit percents of each political faction. Viewing the world through it exclusively is perilous.
  - anileated 3y ago
    When someone publishes a recording that is verifiably Russian bombing of Syria, and claims it to be Israeli bombing of Gaza, it is not a matter of “opinion”. And investigative journalism has nothing to do with Twitter in particular. However, do remember that Twitter (as well as Facebook, TikTok, Hacker News, Mastodon, email, Matrix, WhatsApp, or what have you) is as much part of real life as anything else, online and off, is part of real life. It is not some proverbial Las Vegas where nothing counts.

AniseAbyss 3y ago

[dead]

makeitdouble 3y ago

That sounds a lot like how "news" were sourced before that, with random interviews at street corners near the newspaper's office, stuff they heard at parties and from friends. I don't believe there has been a fundamental shift on how much people are willing to put work into their pieces.

adolph 3y ago
“Random interviews” Gregory F. Packer (born December 18, 1963), is a retired[1] American highway maintenance worker from Huntington, New York, best known for frequently being quoted as a "man on the street" in newspapers, magazines and television broadcasts from 1995 to the present. He has been quoted in hundreds of articles and television broadcasts as a member of the public (that is, a "man on the street" rather than a newsmaker or expert). Although he always gives his real name, he has admitted to making things up to get into the paper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Packer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Packer
steveBK123 3y ago
> I don't believe there has been a fundamental shift on how much people are willing to put work into their pieces. Publisher of NYTimes is on the record in a few interviews basically saying that yes, his journalists are putting in less work into their pieces (because they are forced to produce more pieces per day).

mattmanser 3y ago

You used to get the same phenomena in broadsheets before that though. I saw it frequently in the Sunday (maybe Saturday?) magazine included in the big UK papers. I remember coming to the realization when reading a fluff piece that the author had basically interviewed their mates and made it a story. I think the specific article was about marrying later, and they'd just interviewed a bunch of uni-educated people of a certain socio-economic wealth. No stats, no experts, just 'gut' feeling about what was happening. And once you saw it, you realized a significant chunk of the non-news stories were like that. This was in the 90s/00s. I think a lot of lifestyle articles have been that way for a long time, pre-internet, it's just that the lifestyle articles are more prominent now.

rvba 3y ago

Sometimes those looked like sock puppet accounts of the journalist. 1. Make few accounts on twitter 2. Post some bullshit 3. Quote it

mckern 3y ago

In fact, The Economist published a 17,000 word un-paywalled piece [0] recently about the NYT's group think problem. [0] https://www.economist.com/1843/2023/12/14/when-the-new-york-times-lost-its-way https://www.economist.com/1843/2023/12/14/when-the-new-york-...

steveBK123 3y ago
Yes! I hadn't managed to sit through and read the thing until now, though I've seen a number of interesting excerpts quoted. Two that really stuck out to me was- Even columnists with impeccable leftist bona fides recoiled from tackling subjects when their point of view might depart from progressive orthodoxy. I once complimented a long-time, left-leaning Opinion writer over a column criticising Democrats in Congress for doing something stupid. Trying to encourage more such journalism and thus less such stupidity, I remarked that this kind of argument had more influence than yet another Trump-is-a-devil column. “I know,” he replied, ruefully. “But Twitter hates it.” Trying to be helpful, one of the top newsroom editors urged me to start attaching trigger warnings to pieces by conservatives. It had not occurred to him how this would stigmatise certain colleagues, or what it would say to the world about the Times’s own bias. By their nature, information bubbles are powerfully self-reinforcing, and I think many Times staff have little idea how closed their world has become, or how far they are from fulfilling their compact with readers to show the world “without fear or favour”.
1over137 3y ago
Maybe I'm old, but didn't the NYT used to be very right-wing?
- Robotbeat 3y ago
  20 years ago, when I was right-wing myself (in College Republicans, etc), the AM radio I listened to and people I talked to all thought NYT was very left-wing ("liberal").
  - ruszki 3y ago
    Liberalism wasn’t a question of left or right 10+ years ago.

jeanchen 3y ago

As the old saying goes, "news is what happens to the editor."