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> The very idea of popularity is up for debate: Is that trend really viral? Did everyone see that post, or is it just my little corner of the internet? This is

> The very idea of popularity is up for debate: Is that trend really viral? Did everyone see that post, or is it just my little corner of the internet? This is exactly it. Consider a scenario that's likely fairly common given experiments I've done in the last several years. Say a site people still use to talk to/keep in touch with friends sometimes like IG/FB decides a user is "toxic" and either shadowbans them, or starts hiding their posts from friends. Maybe it isn't even because of a bad interaction, maybe the algorithm just decided their "content" wasn't suitable to be towards the top of this user's followers' feeds. What would that look like to this user? It'd look like their friends were ignoring them, weren't interested in them, etc., possibly leading to depression (which has been proven pretty undeniably that high levels of social media use in teens results in higher levels of anxiety and depression). The fact that people en masse are not pointing out how ridiculous this is, that a social media site can have such enormous influence on one's perception of "reality" is staggering and it should die and die quickly.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
actionfromafar 3y ago
The trick is to auto-tune the algorithm just short of total depression, and give them a glimmer of hope and interaction with friends. Then it's back to the ads for a new cycle. What's great about AI is that the we don't even need anyone to code this explicitly, it will just happen automatically. This way it's not malicious at all! /s
terminous 3y ago
> that a social media site can have such enormous influence on one's perception of "reality" is staggering and it should die and die quickly. You say this as if humanity has not been fighting over the long-distance communication of information for literally the entire history of human civilization since the invention of language. Even before written language, storytellers decided what oral traditions they would or would not pass on, changing it each time they told it. Replace "social media" with "broadcast networks" or "newspapers" or "scientific journals" and it is the same issue. You don't have a world in which 8 billion people are connected (or even 1 billion, or even 1 million, or even 1000) without a few intermediaries whose purpose is to distribute some but not all descriptions of reality to a public audience, and who gain immense power through that.
- JakeAl 3y ago
  On this note, the invention of the printing press led to The Reformation with the first printing of the Bible, which up until that point had been duplicated by monks by hand, and The Word controlled and interpreted by the Church, who wielded their power like modern governments and institutions deciding what is or is not mis- or disinformation.
- dogcomplex 3y ago
  Yep and the solution then is the same as it is now - democratizing the means of production and communication, insulating it from the influences of capital and profit. Socialism is the boring age-old answer to every one of these.
  - civilized 3y ago
    What are the successes of this age-old solution?
    - specialist 3y ago
      Many fewer people dying alone in gutters.
      - civilized 3y ago
        Agreed that the social democratic solution of redistribution and welfare programs does great on this front, and I think all Western countries have some form of it. But I think here we are talking about other socialist prescriptions, which have a much worse track record.
  - UnFleshedOne 3y ago
    China is doing pretty well on that front, yeah...
- zamfi 3y ago
  > Even before written language, storytellers decided what oral traditions they would or would not pass on, changing it each time they told it. Replace "social media" with "broadcast networks" or "newspapers" or "scientific journals" and it is the same issue. This is not the same thing. Pre-social media/pre-Internet I was not clueless about whether my communications with my "friends" were being received because almost every channel I had available to me was synchronous and there was much less noise. Now, social media presents a broadcast interface and many people assume that their posts are being displayed to their friends. This is not actually the case. When your friends don't respond, you don't know if it's because your friends have stopped caring about you, they're just not interested in what you said, or some algorithm decided to hide you from them---and most people probably do not seriously consider the latter most of the time. Whether we need intermediaries or not is one question, but whether we need feedback in our communication is settled: we do, and we leave it to the whims of algorithms optimized for engagement to our peril.
1970-01-01 3y ago
I'm coming around to just ignoring the Atlantic. Their opinions have a rambling and stream of consciousness flow because they attempt to make something big out of something very small. Amplification of problems can be important, however when it's done in this style, you still have lots of disconnected problems and overall garbage as output.
- Lamad1234 3y ago
  I don't know. I think it's a really good article. The most watched Netflix show that nobody's heard of is such an thought-provoking thing to bring up.
  - 1970-01-01 3y ago
    >The most watched Netflix show that nobody's heard of The oxymoronic style of this sentence reflects why I now ignore reading the Atlantic. Clearly it cannot be true, yet they claim it is to continue their narrative. Their next sentence, a citation of "one person posted" is also unpalatable.
    - digging 3y ago
      > The oxymoronic style of this sentence reflects why I now ignore reading the Atlantic. Clearly it cannot be true, yet they claim it is to continue their narrative. Not going to try to convince you to read The Atlantic, but the issue here is entirely on your end. They are not literally claiming that nobody has heard of the show. They are employing hyperbole.
      - latency-guy2 3y ago
        > They are employing hyperbole. So its not an issue entirely on one end, its a deliberate action designed to make people feel one way, but falls apart under analysis.
        digging 3y ago
jeremyjh 3y ago
They should be teaching about algorithmic social media feeds in health class.
- kody 3y ago
  I taught a Middle School class on digital citizenship and found Common Sense's lesson plans helpful: https://www.commonsense.org/education/digital-citizenship https://www.commonsense.org/education/digital-citizenship The kids engaged most with lessons about privacy and least with lessons about social media addiction and influence.
JohnFen 3y ago
> It'd look like their friends were ignoring them, weren't interested in them, etc., possibly leading to depression If my friends seemed to be ignoring my tweets, I'd certainly ask them what's up with that through a different mechanism (in person, through texting, whatever). If the only interaction I have with a person is through Twitter, then it's a real stretch to call them "friends" in the first place.
- JohnMakin 3y ago
  Ok, sure, but the parent comment doesn't really mention twitter at all. It's entirely normal for friends to communicate mostly via IG/FB, especially when separated by distance.
- darkerside 3y ago
  You would really ask your friends why they are ignoring your tweets? I would feel a little ridiculous doing that.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I absolutely would, if it were a thing that was bothering me. They're my friends, after all. Why would someone feel ridiculous for checking in with their friends about something strange?
    - darkerside 3y ago
      To each his own. If my friend asked why I was ignoring his tweet, I'd tell him to please stop obsessing over Twitter for his own health.
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  That's... desperate. I mean good friends will be honest with you, but you will look really desperate for validation, and actually behave like it. I'd say most folks who are not actually earning cash from being an 'influencer' seek some form of validation, but most will deny it, and most of those will actually believe their words. We humans are sometimes a bit weird, aren't we.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

actionfromafar 3y ago

The trick is to auto-tune the algorithm just short of total depression, and give them a glimmer of hope and interaction with friends. Then it's back to the ads for a new cycle. What's great about AI is that the we don't even need anyone to code this explicitly, it will just happen automatically. This way it's not malicious at all! /s

terminous 3y ago

> that a social media site can have such enormous influence on one's perception of "reality" is staggering and it should die and die quickly. You say this as if humanity has not been fighting over the long-distance communication of information for literally the entire history of human civilization since the invention of language. Even before written language, storytellers decided what oral traditions they would or would not pass on, changing it each time they told it. Replace "social media" with "broadcast networks" or "newspapers" or "scientific journals" and it is the same issue. You don't have a world in which 8 billion people are connected (or even 1 billion, or even 1 million, or even 1000) without a few intermediaries whose purpose is to distribute some but not all descriptions of reality to a public audience, and who gain immense power through that.

JakeAl 3y ago
On this note, the invention of the printing press led to The Reformation with the first printing of the Bible, which up until that point had been duplicated by monks by hand, and The Word controlled and interpreted by the Church, who wielded their power like modern governments and institutions deciding what is or is not mis- or disinformation.
dogcomplex 3y ago
Yep and the solution then is the same as it is now - democratizing the means of production and communication, insulating it from the influences of capital and profit. Socialism is the boring age-old answer to every one of these.
- civilized 3y ago
  What are the successes of this age-old solution?
  - specialist 3y ago
    Many fewer people dying alone in gutters.
    - civilized 3y ago
      Agreed that the social democratic solution of redistribution and welfare programs does great on this front, and I think all Western countries have some form of it. But I think here we are talking about other socialist prescriptions, which have a much worse track record.
- UnFleshedOne 3y ago
  China is doing pretty well on that front, yeah...
zamfi 3y ago
> Even before written language, storytellers decided what oral traditions they would or would not pass on, changing it each time they told it. Replace "social media" with "broadcast networks" or "newspapers" or "scientific journals" and it is the same issue. This is not the same thing. Pre-social media/pre-Internet I was not clueless about whether my communications with my "friends" were being received because almost every channel I had available to me was synchronous and there was much less noise. Now, social media presents a broadcast interface and many people assume that their posts are being displayed to their friends. This is not actually the case. When your friends don't respond, you don't know if it's because your friends have stopped caring about you, they're just not interested in what you said, or some algorithm decided to hide you from them---and most people probably do not seriously consider the latter most of the time. Whether we need intermediaries or not is one question, but whether we need feedback in our communication is settled: we do, and we leave it to the whims of algorithms optimized for engagement to our peril.

1970-01-01 3y ago

I'm coming around to just ignoring the Atlantic. Their opinions have a rambling and stream of consciousness flow because they attempt to make something big out of something very small. Amplification of problems can be important, however when it's done in this style, you still have lots of disconnected problems and overall garbage as output.

Lamad1234 3y ago
I don't know. I think it's a really good article. The most watched Netflix show that nobody's heard of is such an thought-provoking thing to bring up.
- 1970-01-01 3y ago
  >The most watched Netflix show that nobody's heard of The oxymoronic style of this sentence reflects why I now ignore reading the Atlantic. Clearly it cannot be true, yet they claim it is to continue their narrative. Their next sentence, a citation of "one person posted" is also unpalatable.
  - digging 3y ago
    > The oxymoronic style of this sentence reflects why I now ignore reading the Atlantic. Clearly it cannot be true, yet they claim it is to continue their narrative. Not going to try to convince you to read The Atlantic, but the issue here is entirely on your end. They are not literally claiming that nobody has heard of the show. They are employing hyperbole.
    - latency-guy2 3y ago
      > They are employing hyperbole. So its not an issue entirely on one end, its a deliberate action designed to make people feel one way, but falls apart under analysis.
      - digging 3y ago

jeremyjh 3y ago

They should be teaching about algorithmic social media feeds in health class.

kody 3y ago
I taught a Middle School class on digital citizenship and found Common Sense's lesson plans helpful: https://www.commonsense.org/education/digital-citizenship https://www.commonsense.org/education/digital-citizenship The kids engaged most with lessons about privacy and least with lessons about social media addiction and influence.

JohnFen 3y ago

> It'd look like their friends were ignoring them, weren't interested in them, etc., possibly leading to depression If my friends seemed to be ignoring my tweets, I'd certainly ask them what's up with that through a different mechanism (in person, through texting, whatever). If the only interaction I have with a person is through Twitter, then it's a real stretch to call them "friends" in the first place.

JohnMakin 3y ago
Ok, sure, but the parent comment doesn't really mention twitter at all. It's entirely normal for friends to communicate mostly via IG/FB, especially when separated by distance.
darkerside 3y ago
You would really ask your friends why they are ignoring your tweets? I would feel a little ridiculous doing that.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I absolutely would, if it were a thing that was bothering me. They're my friends, after all. Why would someone feel ridiculous for checking in with their friends about something strange?
  - darkerside 3y ago
    To each his own. If my friend asked why I was ignoring his tweet, I'd tell him to please stop obsessing over Twitter for his own health.
saiya-jin 3y ago
That's... desperate. I mean good friends will be honest with you, but you will look really desperate for validation, and actually behave like it. I'd say most folks who are not actually earning cash from being an 'influencer' seek some form of validation, but most will deny it, and most of those will actually believe their words. We humans are sometimes a bit weird, aren't we.