5 ms·

I am sensing zero momentum for Wayland. It was is absolutely idiotic API with lots of unnecessary arbitrary restriction and vast over-complication and over-engi

by sprash 3y ago

I am sensing zero momentum for Wayland. It was is absolutely idiotic API with lots of unnecessary arbitrary restriction and vast over-complication and over-engineering for no other reason than NIHS. It will eventually be dropped like a hot potato, just like HAL.

cempaka 3y ago
I felt like I also saw the momentum the OP talks about, and then when I went to try and set up Sway as my window manager in a new Void Linux installation it was a total nightmare. I need some new thing called a "seat manager" that I never needed with X11? And the only options are the bloated elogind (the whole point of Void is to avoid systemd style programs) or the somewhat feature bare seatd, neither of which I could get to work? Pass.
- abrouwers 3y ago
  Well, you're choosing the least popular (non-systemd) approach, and also skipping elogind. This stuff JustWorks on systemd based systems, so your blaim is inaccurate. At LEAST read the docs for your distro: https://docs.voidlinux.org/config/session-management.html https://docs.voidlinux.org/config/session-management.html
  - cempaka 3y ago
    Where do you think I found out about the necessity to install either of those things in the first place? If Wayland only JustWorks on systemd-based systems that's not exactly making a great case for it, and this thread has plenty of other downstream stuff that it seems to upend as well.
    - abrouwers 3y ago
      I'm not trying to make a case for it, it's the simple the truth that systemd has simplified a lot of this behind the scenes work. If you'd prefer to stick to the un-maintained X server because you value your init system more, that's up to you :)
abrouwers 3y ago
So the largest two desktop environments defaulting to it, popular WMs (sway, etc) getting Wayland versions, PLUS agnostic projects like Firefox, is "zero momentum?" If anything, it's made (sadly) obvious which projects severely lack resources to migrate - the XFCE, enlightenment, gimp, etc. of the world.
- addicted 3y ago
  I think we will find a lot of these projects always had the resources. There are many people in the Linux community that are just vehemently opposed to it. I suspect that in many cases the “lack of resources” was simply not having the resources to convince some of these people to stop being roadblocks.
  - arp242 3y ago
    GIMP hasn't even migrated to GTK3 yet. The upcoming GIMP 3 will finally use GTK3 and is slated for release in a few months, but this is years after almost everyone else. Certainly in the case of GIMP I think "lack of resources" can be substantiated pretty easily. IIRC GIMP 3 will also get Wayland support – I'd have to check to be sure. I'm less sure about XFCE or Enlightenment. Judging from [1] the XFCE people have been working on it since Feb 2021 (when that page was created), but real issues still remain, and I'm not surprised that "let's do a substantial rewrite of much of our codebase from something that works perfectly fine to ... something else that works perfectly fine" is not hugely top priority for a fairly small project like this. Call that "people being roadblocks" if you will, but that doesn't strike me as fair. Neither of us get to decide where these people spend their time. [1]: https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap
- DCKing 3y ago
  It's not as dire as you think :) Gimp should get Wayland support automatically when they complete the move to Gtk3 (which supports Wayland, Gtk2 does not) and the betas already support Wayland [1]. Enlightenment has clear plans for a Wayland mode [2]. Xfce has stated they'll support it too of course, but it's the largest change they'd be making in decades so it's understandable they're cautious. Maybe the momentum will have people get involved for Xfce, I'm pretty hopeful for all projects. [1]: https://www.phoronix.com/news/GIMP-2.99.2-Released https://www.phoronix.com/news/GIMP-2.99.2-Released [2]: https://www.enlightenment.org/about-wayland https://www.enlightenment.org/about-wayland

by sprash 3y ago

cempaka 3y ago

I felt like I also saw the momentum the OP talks about, and then when I went to try and set up Sway as my window manager in a new Void Linux installation it was a total nightmare. I need some new thing called a "seat manager" that I never needed with X11? And the only options are the bloated elogind (the whole point of Void is to avoid systemd style programs) or the somewhat feature bare seatd, neither of which I could get to work? Pass.

abrouwers 3y ago
Well, you're choosing the least popular (non-systemd) approach, and also skipping elogind. This stuff JustWorks on systemd based systems, so your blaim is inaccurate. At LEAST read the docs for your distro: https://docs.voidlinux.org/config/session-management.html https://docs.voidlinux.org/config/session-management.html
- cempaka 3y ago
  Where do you think I found out about the necessity to install either of those things in the first place? If Wayland only JustWorks on systemd-based systems that's not exactly making a great case for it, and this thread has plenty of other downstream stuff that it seems to upend as well.
  - abrouwers 3y ago
    I'm not trying to make a case for it, it's the simple the truth that systemd has simplified a lot of this behind the scenes work. If you'd prefer to stick to the un-maintained X server because you value your init system more, that's up to you :)

abrouwers 3y ago

So the largest two desktop environments defaulting to it, popular WMs (sway, etc) getting Wayland versions, PLUS agnostic projects like Firefox, is "zero momentum?" If anything, it's made (sadly) obvious which projects severely lack resources to migrate - the XFCE, enlightenment, gimp, etc. of the world.

addicted 3y ago
I think we will find a lot of these projects always had the resources. There are many people in the Linux community that are just vehemently opposed to it. I suspect that in many cases the “lack of resources” was simply not having the resources to convince some of these people to stop being roadblocks.
- arp242 3y ago
  GIMP hasn't even migrated to GTK3 yet. The upcoming GIMP 3 will finally use GTK3 and is slated for release in a few months, but this is years after almost everyone else. Certainly in the case of GIMP I think "lack of resources" can be substantiated pretty easily. IIRC GIMP 3 will also get Wayland support – I'd have to check to be sure. I'm less sure about XFCE or Enlightenment. Judging from [1] the XFCE people have been working on it since Feb 2021 (when that page was created), but real issues still remain, and I'm not surprised that "let's do a substantial rewrite of much of our codebase from something that works perfectly fine to ... something else that works perfectly fine" is not hugely top priority for a fairly small project like this. Call that "people being roadblocks" if you will, but that doesn't strike me as fair. Neither of us get to decide where these people spend their time. [1]: https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap
DCKing 3y ago
It's not as dire as you think :) Gimp should get Wayland support automatically when they complete the move to Gtk3 (which supports Wayland, Gtk2 does not) and the betas already support Wayland [1]. Enlightenment has clear plans for a Wayland mode [2]. Xfce has stated they'll support it too of course, but it's the largest change they'd be making in decades so it's understandable they're cautious. Maybe the momentum will have people get involved for Xfce, I'm pretty hopeful for all projects. [1]: https://www.phoronix.com/news/GIMP-2.99.2-Released https://www.phoronix.com/news/GIMP-2.99.2-Released [2]: https://www.enlightenment.org/about-wayland https://www.enlightenment.org/about-wayland