3 ms·

I think the downvoting is often because there are no arguments, just negativity without explaining what exactly is problematic, like in your comment which is al

I think the downvoting is often because there are no arguments, just negativity without explaining what exactly is problematic, like in your comment which is also getting downvoted...

kristjank 3y ago
I do not like how ready the big spenders in the Linux sphere are to push wayland into every crack, considering: 1. It consistently breaks closed-cource software that I need to use in education like Mathematica and MATLAB 2. It requires tweaking to work with Flameshot and related screenshotting software 3. It breaks emulation layers like Wine and Proton (or significantly decreases performance). This was a dealbreaker since I managed to move almost completely to Linux for gaming. 4. It does weird things with scaling. I used to use three monitors (two 1080p above one another and a 1060p to the side) and it always did weird things if I tried to span windows across it. 5. It still is not working properly on Nvidia. There is a problem with these technologies where the leaders are reinventing wheels and making them square in the process, acting like past paradigms are completely useless and that you're ridiculous for even questioning the departure from status quo. And because big entities like Microsoft, Red Hat, Fedora, Canonical etc. spend money on them, the main users have little say in the features developed. Desktop finally got to a reliable and comfortable point with software compatibility and usability, but now we have a ton of people funded by the EmbraceExtendExtinguish crowd pushing a new desktop protocol stack that obviously breaks things.
- tapoxi 3y ago
  1) I haven't used these, but I assume newer releases will be native to Wayland. 2) This is because you need to make an API call to the compositor to capture the screen. This is a one-time change unless you're using a very old application that hasn't had Wayland support added in the last decade. 3) It doesn't significantly impact Wine/Proton performance. In fact the Steam Deck runs a Wayland compositor (Gamescope) with the games under XWayland. Valve is porting Wine/Proton to support Wayland natively. 4) This isn't up to Wayland but up to the compositor. 5) This is Nvidia's fault for trying to force everyone else's hand by using their driver API model of choice for years until only recently capitulating.
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    1) They should work in xwayland
jauntywundrkind 3y ago
Yes. Anytime anything that's generally good comes up, there's a torrent of reactionary butter voices, who cast broad disparagement about with abandon. It's a terrible plague. We dealt with it for years for systemd, but the tides have turned there pretty broadly & 99.999% of us get it and see the value and understand how it's much better than copy pasting shoddy shell scripts around. Making arguments that people can rebut or support would drastically alter the situation. (Those arguments not all being "Nvidia doesn't work well" would also be required in this case; we of open source are closest to the gods but even us saintly miracle workers on earth have limits & that green devil does confound us.) Climbing up the ladder from lowest to highest form of disagreement, it would be nice to see folks able to acknowledge perspectives from the other side, to be able to go through what aspects are good & great. Having nuance does not seem to be a strong suit for the anti systemd anti pulseaudio anti Wayland posters. Sometimes there's some of this done, but often pretty backhanded. I'd like to see more steelmanning.
- acdha 3y ago
  > Making arguments that people can rebut or support would drastically alter the situation This is why the non-specific griping gets an immediate downvote from me. There are only a few things where the crappiness is so widely agreed upon that you don’t need to explain; if you’re talking about something which millions of computers are already running, it’s quite unlikely that something is completely unusable, or that anything useful will come out of the ranting. If there are specific details, though, it’s possible to have a productive conversation and maybe lead to some open source work.
- jauntywundrkind 3y ago
  Adding on to myself, a core frustration I have with Wayland criticism in specific is that a lot of people seem to bring very totalized expectations to the debate. I confess, I still think The Cathedral and the Bazaar describes a very real distinction in how stuff is developed. One grand pre-designed edifice, versus a lot of different forces in a action slowly sussing out what works well. There's so many people mad sad and angry that everything isn't already perfect. There's people mad sad and angry that everything isn't more centralized, isnt all the same. They see the lack of a core display server as some horrible flaw. That freedom to try & iterate & explore solution spaces has made things go slower. Sure, yes, and that's had pain. But we've seen so much innovation at the edge, various servers trying different takes & different protocols, and then coming together to try to figure out how to mesh stuff together. Some people are so averse to these sticky complicated involved processes. It's short term inconvenient to not have a dictator deciding, just picking from off the cuff. I try to empathize with these views, & I get the yearning for not having to hash stuff out, to some degree. But I don't see any nuance that I'd hope for. I don't see that these harsh unforgiving critics get the stakes, I don't see that they have any appreciation for iteration, I don't see that they have any idea the benefit of this being a social not dictatorial process. They apply their preconceived notions of software as cathedral building to a situation that is shooting for long long long stakes, that wants direly to be long term good after watching many shortly made ad-hoc decisions compound into the X schmorgasboard of ideas. I feel like these people don't want to be reasoned with. They don't want to consider the Bazaar model. They don't want to respect or love the expansion/contraction of innovation-at-the-edge and then coming together. They by and large don't see that the ability to build a Wayland server out of nothing in a weekend has a decent-if-different counter-position to their angst that one could keep reusing X to build new WM's. I believe & cherish that we are iterating through Wayland. Protocols are happening. The progress has been clear and nots le, even though various pieces have been harder to settle upon & get right. It's commonly said that the protocol discussions (wars) are resistant to listening to app devs, but in many many threads it's clear there's dueling ideas of what the protocol ought to be, of what works well, but people interpret un-acceptance of their idea as rejection. Things are iterating. Some pieces are harder than others but it seems clear there s iteration. And the village of ideas model that's happening here keeps seeming to make good critical assessments, keeps finding very high quality options, after hard tribulation. I don't see the nuance from critics: they have specific issues but so often comprehension for the scene, only their own personal bailiwicks. Their criticisms are often the best thing happening, are why this is working, maybe just not at their asked for pace (but instead a build-it-for-life path). They see innovation at the edge as terrible and bad and their enemy, when it is the salvation & protection from mistakes & ability to try things safely that lets us figure stuff out. Critics of systems similarly felt persistently low dimensional, shallow, uninterested & unengaged & uncontemplative. I want nuance and respect, ability to recognize tradeoffs & appreciate the other views, regardless of what one feels, and I find that severely lacking in most HN criticism. And the critics are soooo vocal, so persistent. They exhaust us. While offering little.
WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
There are arguments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38696991 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38696991 It's something else, look what got downvoted/flagged, it's propaganda/censorship at this point ;)

I think the downvoting is often because there are no arguments, just negativity without explaining what exactly is problematic, like in your comment which is also getting downvoted...

kristjank 3y ago

I do not like how ready the big spenders in the Linux sphere are to push wayland into every crack, considering: 1. It consistently breaks closed-cource software that I need to use in education like Mathematica and MATLAB 2. It requires tweaking to work with Flameshot and related screenshotting software 3. It breaks emulation layers like Wine and Proton (or significantly decreases performance). This was a dealbreaker since I managed to move almost completely to Linux for gaming. 4. It does weird things with scaling. I used to use three monitors (two 1080p above one another and a 1060p to the side) and it always did weird things if I tried to span windows across it. 5. It still is not working properly on Nvidia. There is a problem with these technologies where the leaders are reinventing wheels and making them square in the process, acting like past paradigms are completely useless and that you're ridiculous for even questioning the departure from status quo. And because big entities like Microsoft, Red Hat, Fedora, Canonical etc. spend money on them, the main users have little say in the features developed. Desktop finally got to a reliable and comfortable point with software compatibility and usability, but now we have a ton of people funded by the EmbraceExtendExtinguish crowd pushing a new desktop protocol stack that obviously breaks things.

tapoxi 3y ago
1) I haven't used these, but I assume newer releases will be native to Wayland. 2) This is because you need to make an API call to the compositor to capture the screen. This is a one-time change unless you're using a very old application that hasn't had Wayland support added in the last decade. 3) It doesn't significantly impact Wine/Proton performance. In fact the Steam Deck runs a Wayland compositor (Gamescope) with the games under XWayland. Valve is porting Wine/Proton to support Wayland natively. 4) This isn't up to Wayland but up to the compositor. 5) This is Nvidia's fault for trying to force everyone else's hand by using their driver API model of choice for years until only recently capitulating.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  1) They should work in xwayland

jauntywundrkind 3y ago

Yes. Anytime anything that's generally good comes up, there's a torrent of reactionary butter voices, who cast broad disparagement about with abandon. It's a terrible plague. We dealt with it for years for systemd, but the tides have turned there pretty broadly & 99.999% of us get it and see the value and understand how it's much better than copy pasting shoddy shell scripts around. Making arguments that people can rebut or support would drastically alter the situation. (Those arguments not all being "Nvidia doesn't work well" would also be required in this case; we of open source are closest to the gods but even us saintly miracle workers on earth have limits & that green devil does confound us.) Climbing up the ladder from lowest to highest form of disagreement, it would be nice to see folks able to acknowledge perspectives from the other side, to be able to go through what aspects are good & great. Having nuance does not seem to be a strong suit for the anti systemd anti pulseaudio anti Wayland posters. Sometimes there's some of this done, but often pretty backhanded. I'd like to see more steelmanning.

acdha 3y ago
> Making arguments that people can rebut or support would drastically alter the situation This is why the non-specific griping gets an immediate downvote from me. There are only a few things where the crappiness is so widely agreed upon that you don’t need to explain; if you’re talking about something which millions of computers are already running, it’s quite unlikely that something is completely unusable, or that anything useful will come out of the ranting. If there are specific details, though, it’s possible to have a productive conversation and maybe lead to some open source work.
jauntywundrkind 3y ago
Adding on to myself, a core frustration I have with Wayland criticism in specific is that a lot of people seem to bring very totalized expectations to the debate. I confess, I still think The Cathedral and the Bazaar describes a very real distinction in how stuff is developed. One grand pre-designed edifice, versus a lot of different forces in a action slowly sussing out what works well. There's so many people mad sad and angry that everything isn't already perfect. There's people mad sad and angry that everything isn't more centralized, isnt all the same. They see the lack of a core display server as some horrible flaw. That freedom to try & iterate & explore solution spaces has made things go slower. Sure, yes, and that's had pain. But we've seen so much innovation at the edge, various servers trying different takes & different protocols, and then coming together to try to figure out how to mesh stuff together. Some people are so averse to these sticky complicated involved processes. It's short term inconvenient to not have a dictator deciding, just picking from off the cuff. I try to empathize with these views, & I get the yearning for not having to hash stuff out, to some degree. But I don't see any nuance that I'd hope for. I don't see that these harsh unforgiving critics get the stakes, I don't see that they have any appreciation for iteration, I don't see that they have any idea the benefit of this being a social not dictatorial process. They apply their preconceived notions of software as cathedral building to a situation that is shooting for long long long stakes, that wants direly to be long term good after watching many shortly made ad-hoc decisions compound into the X schmorgasboard of ideas. I feel like these people don't want to be reasoned with. They don't want to consider the Bazaar model. They don't want to respect or love the expansion/contraction of innovation-at-the-edge and then coming together. They by and large don't see that the ability to build a Wayland server out of nothing in a weekend has a decent-if-different counter-position to their angst that one could keep reusing X to build new WM's. I believe & cherish that we are iterating through Wayland. Protocols are happening. The progress has been clear and nots le, even though various pieces have been harder to settle upon & get right. It's commonly said that the protocol discussions (wars) are resistant to listening to app devs, but in many many threads it's clear there's dueling ideas of what the protocol ought to be, of what works well, but people interpret un-acceptance of their idea as rejection. Things are iterating. Some pieces are harder than others but it seems clear there s iteration. And the village of ideas model that's happening here keeps seeming to make good critical assessments, keeps finding very high quality options, after hard tribulation. I don't see the nuance from critics: they have specific issues but so often comprehension for the scene, only their own personal bailiwicks. Their criticisms are often the best thing happening, are why this is working, maybe just not at their asked for pace (but instead a build-it-for-life path). They see innovation at the edge as terrible and bad and their enemy, when it is the salvation & protection from mistakes & ability to try things safely that lets us figure stuff out. Critics of systems similarly felt persistently low dimensional, shallow, uninterested & unengaged & uncontemplative. I want nuance and respect, ability to recognize tradeoffs & appreciate the other views, regardless of what one feels, and I find that severely lacking in most HN criticism. And the critics are soooo vocal, so persistent. They exhaust us. While offering little.

WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago

There are arguments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38696991 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38696991 It's something else, look what got downvoted/flagged, it's propaganda/censorship at this point ;)