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I've received extremely mixed messages from Americans about how well funded education is. On one hand, I've heard that a class of 30 kids gets almost half a mi

I've received extremely mixed messages from Americans about how well funded education is. On one hand, I've heard that a class of 30 kids gets almost half a million dollars of taxpayer money per year. On the other hand, I've heard that teachers get a salary of about $50k, and have to beg on gofundme to equip their classrooms with basic stationary. I really have no idea how to get these two facts to line up.

kar5pt 3y ago
It's pretty simple actually. US schools are run at the local level, not the national level. So different school districts (a district is usually the size of a town or county) get different amounts of funding.
whywhywhywhy 3y ago
Does it make sense calculating teacher salaries by year when they don’t work the full year, it’s actually significantly less when we take working hours into account maybe as low as 70% so it’s more like they’re paid a 70k rate with low hours and two months off.
- jwestbury 3y ago
  Go ask a teacher about how many hours they work -- it's more than the 40 hours a week we in tech work, generally. And their summers are often full of required continuing education courses which they pay for out of pocket, much like many other professions which are desperately understaffed (see: counselors).
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    How many hours a week do they spend drilling leetcode or being on call. On maintaining their homelab because they need to keep up with the latest fashionable tech nonsense? If you ask anyone, they'll tell you they're busy because that's the socially acceptable thing to say. If I'm honest, I don't do that much work (I tend to believe that's actually why we create and maintain all of these machines - so we don't have to work very much, but I'm apparently a disagreeable sort), but I still say that I'm keeping busy because if I said that I'm basically lazy and just want to meditate or watch TV most of the day away, people (particularly my employer) might take issue with that.
    - Konnstann 3y ago
      The extra hours a week teachers spend have to do with lesson planning, grading, etc. which is directly related to their job unlike leetcode or your homelab or whatever, those aren't equivalent at all.
      - hotpotamus 3y ago
        They say that, but how many times do they need to lesson plan if they teach the same subject year after year? And doesn't the curriculum rather decide the plans anyway? We had scantrons and other grading tech way back when I was in school or even just having the kids grade each others work; there are strategies for that as well. My cousin is a teacher and manages that job plus a couple side businesses plus 3 kids. Somehow he finds the time.
        Konnstann 3y ago
        scantrons and grading each other's work only makes sense if your assignments are multiple choice, which is probably the least effective way of teaching in my opinion. As soon as the assignment requires any essay portion where you can get partial credit that breaks down. Curricula change every year, and relying on whatever standardized test your students are required to pass to develop your plans is a good part of why US education is lambasted elsewhere in the developed world, I'm glad your cousin can run 2 side businesses while teaching but I'd rather pay teachers more so they could put the effort into the kids, because there's a staggering difference between the ones that phone it in and the ones that don't.
        hotpotamus 3y ago
        I think it's entirely possible that the belief in education is one of the many beliefs that I've lost as I get older. Or perhaps like people say they believe in god, but not organized religion, I don't believe in organized education. That reflects my own experience I suppose; I wasn't much of a student, but once I actually got put into a position where I needed to learn things (a computer infrastructure/software engineering type job), I learned them well enough I suppose. One takeaway from the covid lockdowns I took is it seems that to a first approximation, school is where children go for babysitting and perhaps learning happens there somehow. That would reflect my memories (plus it was a good place to score drugs). I didn't think much of the system at the time, and even less upon reflection some years later, and it's not a system I'd want to put kids through, but I seem to say that about an increasing number of aspects of the modern world, so it's likely I'm just some sort of antisocial malcontent.
- serialNumber 3y ago
  During the school year, teachers put in significantly more than the 8 hours they're physically at school. Marking, course planning, etc take up quite a bit of time that teachers must put in outside of work.
  - lupusreal 3y ago
    Honestly it depends on the teacher. You're describing the ones who give a shit.
runjake 3y ago
At least in my state of the US and I’d venture to guess the rest of the US, a disproportionate amount of that taxpayer money goes to special education and other services. So while the statistics may break it down to a half million per classroom, that classroom doesn’t actually see that money. It’s chewed up with special education and the bureaucracy.
maxsilver 3y ago
It's both. School systems are often heavily funded (but not always and not consistently, it varies by literal district). School employees are often drastically underpaid (but not always, and not consistently, it varies by district). My local school district (generic midwest USA), there's a 17:1 teacher ratio, each student represents $13,011/yr in funding (so a single classroom gets $221,187 in government funding each year). Of that, the teacher in that room collects a salary of $40k to $60k W2 salary each year (plus benefits). Or, a teacher's salary is basically ~20% to 25% of the budget for that classroom, and the rest goes elsewhere. And yeah, our teachers get literally nothing for their rooms, so they have to beg parents to donate crayons and tissue paper and pencils and basically anything else in their classroom, every year. (generally, each parent is expected to pitch in about $100 per student per year, in donate-ables to cover the stuff the district won't provide for teachers)
- frumper 3y ago
  Often the per student funding number is skewed because of all the services a school provides, but not every student gets. Extra services may be specialized staff like speech therapists, occupational therapists, nurses, aides, bussing, or lunch programs. As an example, a special education class may have several aids, more specialized equipment and a need for more accommodating rooms. So it may not be a good method to take number of students x average cost = classroom budget.
2devnull 3y ago
Salary varies a lot by location. I think median salary for teacher in California is ~90k. But teacher salary is not the only cost of running a school district. Multiple buildings to manage, maybe busses, various staff, etc…
Izkata 3y ago
> I really have no idea how to get these two facts to line up. The proportion that goes to the management levels above the teachers keeps going up, instead of to the teachers or teaching materials.

kar5pt 3y ago

It's pretty simple actually. US schools are run at the local level, not the national level. So different school districts (a district is usually the size of a town or county) get different amounts of funding.

whywhywhywhy 3y ago

Does it make sense calculating teacher salaries by year when they don’t work the full year, it’s actually significantly less when we take working hours into account maybe as low as 70% so it’s more like they’re paid a 70k rate with low hours and two months off.

jwestbury 3y ago
Go ask a teacher about how many hours they work -- it's more than the 40 hours a week we in tech work, generally. And their summers are often full of required continuing education courses which they pay for out of pocket, much like many other professions which are desperately understaffed (see: counselors).
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  How many hours a week do they spend drilling leetcode or being on call. On maintaining their homelab because they need to keep up with the latest fashionable tech nonsense? If you ask anyone, they'll tell you they're busy because that's the socially acceptable thing to say. If I'm honest, I don't do that much work (I tend to believe that's actually why we create and maintain all of these machines - so we don't have to work very much, but I'm apparently a disagreeable sort), but I still say that I'm keeping busy because if I said that I'm basically lazy and just want to meditate or watch TV most of the day away, people (particularly my employer) might take issue with that.
  - Konnstann 3y ago
    The extra hours a week teachers spend have to do with lesson planning, grading, etc. which is directly related to their job unlike leetcode or your homelab or whatever, those aren't equivalent at all.
    - hotpotamus 3y ago
      They say that, but how many times do they need to lesson plan if they teach the same subject year after year? And doesn't the curriculum rather decide the plans anyway? We had scantrons and other grading tech way back when I was in school or even just having the kids grade each others work; there are strategies for that as well. My cousin is a teacher and manages that job plus a couple side businesses plus 3 kids. Somehow he finds the time.
      - Konnstann 3y ago
        scantrons and grading each other's work only makes sense if your assignments are multiple choice, which is probably the least effective way of teaching in my opinion. As soon as the assignment requires any essay portion where you can get partial credit that breaks down. Curricula change every year, and relying on whatever standardized test your students are required to pass to develop your plans is a good part of why US education is lambasted elsewhere in the developed world, I'm glad your cousin can run 2 side businesses while teaching but I'd rather pay teachers more so they could put the effort into the kids, because there's a staggering difference between the ones that phone it in and the ones that don't.
        hotpotamus 3y ago
        I think it's entirely possible that the belief in education is one of the many beliefs that I've lost as I get older. Or perhaps like people say they believe in god, but not organized religion, I don't believe in organized education. That reflects my own experience I suppose; I wasn't much of a student, but once I actually got put into a position where I needed to learn things (a computer infrastructure/software engineering type job), I learned them well enough I suppose. One takeaway from the covid lockdowns I took is it seems that to a first approximation, school is where children go for babysitting and perhaps learning happens there somehow. That would reflect my memories (plus it was a good place to score drugs). I didn't think much of the system at the time, and even less upon reflection some years later, and it's not a system I'd want to put kids through, but I seem to say that about an increasing number of aspects of the modern world, so it's likely I'm just some sort of antisocial malcontent.
serialNumber 3y ago
During the school year, teachers put in significantly more than the 8 hours they're physically at school. Marking, course planning, etc take up quite a bit of time that teachers must put in outside of work.
- lupusreal 3y ago
  Honestly it depends on the teacher. You're describing the ones who give a shit.

runjake 3y ago

At least in my state of the US and I’d venture to guess the rest of the US, a disproportionate amount of that taxpayer money goes to special education and other services. So while the statistics may break it down to a half million per classroom, that classroom doesn’t actually see that money. It’s chewed up with special education and the bureaucracy.

maxsilver 3y ago

It's both. School systems are often heavily funded (but not always and not consistently, it varies by literal district). School employees are often drastically underpaid (but not always, and not consistently, it varies by district). My local school district (generic midwest USA), there's a 17:1 teacher ratio, each student represents $13,011/yr in funding (so a single classroom gets $221,187 in government funding each year). Of that, the teacher in that room collects a salary of $40k to $60k W2 salary each year (plus benefits). Or, a teacher's salary is basically ~20% to 25% of the budget for that classroom, and the rest goes elsewhere. And yeah, our teachers get literally nothing for their rooms, so they have to beg parents to donate crayons and tissue paper and pencils and basically anything else in their classroom, every year. (generally, each parent is expected to pitch in about $100 per student per year, in donate-ables to cover the stuff the district won't provide for teachers)

frumper 3y ago
Often the per student funding number is skewed because of all the services a school provides, but not every student gets. Extra services may be specialized staff like speech therapists, occupational therapists, nurses, aides, bussing, or lunch programs. As an example, a special education class may have several aids, more specialized equipment and a need for more accommodating rooms. So it may not be a good method to take number of students x average cost = classroom budget.

2devnull 3y ago

Salary varies a lot by location. I think median salary for teacher in California is ~90k. But teacher salary is not the only cost of running a school district. Multiple buildings to manage, maybe busses, various staff, etc…

Izkata 3y ago

> I really have no idea how to get these two facts to line up. The proportion that goes to the management levels above the teachers keeps going up, instead of to the teachers or teaching materials.